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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen  .jpg "James Cowen gallery") Then & NowDATE: 11 April 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 Sorry to hear, Nigel, about your deprived youth in respect of Marmite. I was deprived in never having baked beans on toast at home. My dad was always buying what others might regard as more exotic foods for us all (my Dad, brother and I) such as crab and salmon. There were good trade shops in Borehamwood in those days such as Richies, the fishmonger. I am glad so many products of our youth much enjoyed are still going strong. Others are rather hard to find or of course have disappeared altogether. I spotted a small tin of ZAM Buk in a shop not long ago and though the size of the tin was considerably reduced I purchased it at once. This was not just for nostalgia sake but because the product is so good with its very evocative smell. As a rule we have to make do with Vaseline, though that product is also pretty good as well. I do love to talk about shops and products of the old days with other kindred spirits in Andover as well as enjoying Mr Opie's excellent publications of bygone years. I can talk quite lyrically about enjoying those frozen jubblies on bike rides to railway sheds back in the 50s. For those of a similar inclination may I recommend the Bygones Museum in Babbacombe near Torquay. It has a beautiful line of shops from Victorian days along with thousands of the products. I have not enjoyed a visit as much since going to the Castle Museum in York and to Flambards in Cornwall when our children were small. It also has excellent railway memorabilia for fans of this as well as model railways where the trains can be operated by buttons. Unfortunately two were derailed after I operated them. Memories of railway layouts at Hobbies Exhibitions in the past! Do others still recall the old Sainsbury's in Borehamwood with its two counters and those lovely puff pastry fruit pies? |
NAME: Nick Dean  .JPG "Nick Dean gallery") DATE: 20 April 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71 I remember the old style Sainsbury's in Cockfosters which had several counters (and queues). As a young boy, my mother had me lining up for cheese while she bought meat. I agree with Jas that the fruit pies were fab and I liked the Cornish pasties (9d) which were usually part of the packed lunch I brought to school on Wednesdays. I recall also Williams Brothers in East Barnet village which had mysterious dividend tokens, like coins, in the days before Green Shield stamps. Incidentally, Payantake in Cockfosters used to have wonderful coffee cream biscuits as part of a pick and mix selection. I haven't beeen able to get anything similar for years. Memories of railway layouts at Hobbies Exhibitions in the past ! Since referring in passing to Messrs Fry & Thomas as being like Marmite, I keep finding the word everywhere! A columnist in The Times described Lady Thatcher as the ultimate Marmite politician (no surprise there), while, in the new Wisden (the 150th), another Times writer says that the almanack's yellow and brown dust jacket "Makes me think of streaks of yeast extract over the lid of a Marmite jar". Evidently the first such cover appeared during my first year at QE, in 1965. These days, acquiring a full set of Wisdens would cost in the region of £300K, whereas, about the time that I left school, Tim Rice bought a set for £750 with the proceeds from Jesus Christ Superstar. I've collected back to 1952 (and also have 1934 for Bodyline) - but, beyond that, you have to have to start adding noughts to the number you first thought of ! |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 21 April 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 54-59 I think it must be time to wind up Nigel's quiz [reply 20]. A couple of you came up with reasonable answers, such as Fleischmann and Büchner but in both cases I inadvertantly revealed to them that they hadn't got the man Nigel had in mind, when I questioned their reasoning (which I'd completely misunderstood). They clearly weren't happy for their replies to be published after that. It was Liebig that Nigel had in mind. Here's what he says about it: "There's a long-established brand of yeast called Fleischmann yeast, but I can't find out anything about the founder of the firm. Wiki tells me that Eduard Buchner (1870 - 1917) discovered that the yeast cells didn't have to be living to produce fermentation, but that the Büchner funnel (or Büchner flask) was named after the industrial chemist, Ernst Büchner (1850 - 1924). But the yeast and the lab apparatus associated with persons of the same name - give or take an umlaut - is quite a co-incidence." |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 13 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 I am glad, Nick [reply 22] that someone else not only recalls the old style Sainsbury's counters and yes those jostling queues in another place but also enjoyed some of the same tasty and fascinating products jammed in such small areas, so unlike the massive supermarkets of today. My dad knowing even earlier days and stores used to always call it Liptons. He used to always say "I am just off to Liptons" and I used to always say "No,dad, it's Sainsbury's." As for those coffee cream biscuits you are a man after my own heart, a kindred spirit in the words of Anne of Green Gables. I Know I had some of them in recent times but cannot recall exactly where I got them. I was never a great fan of coffee as a drink but I like those biscuits as well as coffee creams in those Rowntree milk assortments. They were my favourite! A product I really miss is Trebor bitter cherry sweets. The cherry drops replacing them were a poor exchange. |
NAME: Vic Coughtrey (webmaster)  Then & NowDATE: 13 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 54-59 Regarding your reply 22, Nick, my grandmother, who did most of the family shopping, had a huge collection of Williams Bros 'divi' checks from the Barnet High Street branch (the building on the corner of High Street and St Albans Road, which had formerly been the telephone exchange). As a child I was fascinated by those checks and often used to play with them. According to value, they were round, square or oval. The highest value ones were made of brass, the rest of tin. As was fairly typical of working-class people in those days, my parents had nothing to do with banks and cheques, so I grew up thinking that 'cheque' and 'check' were synonymous, both referring exclusively to store divi tokens. It was probably only when I started at QE, where the posher boys paid their dinner money by cheque, that I learned the difference! (I remember Alfie bemoaning the fact that some parents had made the cheques out to 'Queen Elizabeth's Grammer School'. This rather puzzled me as my supposedly poorly-educated parents would have got it right). Inspired by Nick's mention of the divi checks which, as he says, were eventually replaced by trading stamps, I looked through some of the boxes of odds-and-ends inherited from my mother, to see if there was any sign of a check. There was - but not a Williams Bros one. I found a much older Co-op one which a bit of research has revealed to be from the 1880s or '90s, therefore it was probably my great-grandmother's. Have a look at it. |
NAME: Martyn Day  Then & NowDATE: 15 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63 When I was a scruffy 'oik' living in North London it was a matter of honour amongst us pupils at Burghley Road Primary School to remember our mothers' Co-op 'Divi' number. (Older readers may remember that when you bought anything from the Co-Op they wrote your 'Dividend' number onto a ticket which resulted in a small 'cash-back' at Christmas.) My number, 839642, was used in many games ... "Torture me all you like Von Clamp, but I will only give you my name and number!" ... And I still use it today. Unfortunately the Co-Op doesn't. |
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NAME: Vic Coughtrey (webmaster) Then & Now DATE: 15 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 54-59 I've cause to remember that system well, Martyn: my mother worked for many years in the Barnet High Street and Mays Lane Co-op branches as a shop assistant. Quite often, there would be a muddle caused by an assistant recording a number wrongly. The wrong customers then got the dividend and there would be hell from the manager. The system was entirely manual and very primitive by today's standards. |
28th DATE: 16 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71 Two cherished indulgences of school days [see numerous replies before 25]: Kunzle cakes and Duncan walnut whips. I think you can still get the latter, but I recently tried explaining Kunzle cakes to somebody and failed miserably. ("No, they're not the same as cup cakes; they had a chocolate shell.") I also had a penchant for La Bullas's bread and dripping that was served for tea in the refectory at 1d a slice (I think jam was 2d). I remember that Sam C0cks used to go straight to front of the queue, causing maximum turbulance as he did so! |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 18 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 I too remember with fondness those bread and dripping and bread and jam slices. Very much enjoyed from the time the after tea club started! As a latch key child it was good to have an alternative to reading in the library. Reference to La Bullas also makes me think she should have a more prominent place on the site. Do others have good memories and interesting anecdotes? Does anyone even have photos of the lady and other staff to contribute? Best wishes from the man whose family Co-op number was 1130993, one of the numbers I recall besides my padlock number(8567). I had to use it so often at the Borehamwood Co-op. |
NAME: Adam Lines  Then & NowDATE: 18 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 57-64 Mention of Messrs Sainsbury's and the The Co-op [replies 24-27] reminds me of a small grocer's shop in East Barnet near the Essoldo Cinema trading as Cohens. I have often wondered whether this was the acorn from which grew the mighty Tescos (Jack Cohen naming the chain after his daughter Tessa). Also, on the subject of advancing technology, I well remember a wet fish shop in Chase Side Southgate which had an ingeneous system of tracks suspended from the roof whereby, when completing a purchase, the customer's money was deposited in a tray, a sprung handle was pulled down and the it whizzed off to a distant cashier who by similar process returned the change to the customer! Come to think of it I think Tescos use an updated system in their latest supermarkets for cash transfer from tills - perhaps we haven't advanced as far as we thought! |
NAME: Nigel Wood .jpg "Nigel Wood") DATE: 21 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 1957-64 Priors, the department store at Tally Ho Corner in the 1950s, had a similar cash-handling method to the one Adam describes, but on a large scale. It was called the Lamson Paragon system. Overhead wires ran from the various sales counters to a sort of pulpit in one corner of each floor, where sat a formidable lady dressed in black bombazine. A sales assistant (shop assistant in those days) would put a customer's cash and some sort of docket in a canister with a screw-on lid threaded bead-wise on the wire, and would operate a spring-loaded lever, to zing the canister to the pulpit. It would return shortly with the receipted docket and any change owed. As a small child I thought it absolutely wonderful. A different sort of fascination, more a kind of horror, was evoked by the lift-shaft in Priors. It could be viewed through gates of steel bars forming a sort of pantograph which, when the lift arrived, could be opened concertina- fashion. When the lift was moving between floors, the steel counterweight could be seen gliding between its guides at the back of the shaft. It hung from steel ropes, coated in black grease. The shaft was deep and its floor was covered with all sorts of detritus (black of course). [A confession: the black bombazine was a flight of fancy.] |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 23 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 I like your remarks, Martyn [reply 26], about using your mother's Co-op number in various games and refusing to give your name and number. I am of course reminded of Captain Mainwaring in Dad's Army saying in connection with the German combatant's request for Pike's name and number, "Don't tell him, Pike." I have kept my family number a secret for years but now the truth is out. I did lead a sad life of doing most of the family shopping, an occupation which still continues today. To be fair to my wife she does do nearly all the house construction and decorating tasks. Role reversal but what's the harm if we both enjoy our different tasks! As for the manual system you report of the wet fish shop in Chase Side, Adam [reply 30], my wife remembers a similar system at her local grocers in Mansfield in those years long ago. The Lamson Paragon system you talk about, Nigel [reply 31], in connection with Priors at Tally Ho is perhaps the same system as the famous store in Cheltenham that recently closed. I had thought earlier that they had kept the system to the end but thinking about it wonder whether I misheard the radio programme and they were talking of an earlier time. Could they in fact have retained such a system along with presumably having a more usual system for debit and credit payments? Anyhow the system sounds fascinating and I cannot recall whether I was a user in any Borehamwood stores unless Woolworths had such a system once upon a time. I seem to have a vague stirring in my memory regarding it. As regards Vic's 'divi' checks at Williams Brothers I do remember having such tokens myself but cannot recall from where. Maybe there was a Williams Brothers in Borehamwood and perhaps I too have some tokens still under some of the accumulated junk in 1 of my rooms or in a drawer. |
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NAME: Vic Coughtrey Then & Now DATE: 24 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 54-59 Before working at the Co-op [reply 27] my mother worked at Salmon's hardware shop (near the King's Head by Barnet Church) where she had to operate the Lamson Paragon system. That was in the late '40s. Although only about 5 or 6 at the time, I remember it well. It fascinated me. |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 27 May 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 I searched on the Internet and apparently the original company of Lamsom was taken over in 1976 and after several take overs part of the name survives in the present trading company (Quireplace Lamson). I note that the pneumatic tube system still moves cash to a safe and secure area that takes seconds. I do not see anything there about returning any change the other way to the tills. The system is in place not just in retail outlets but elsewhere such as in hospitals. Thanks again, Vic, for allowing some of us to reminisce about retail outlets / shops of the past and present as well as products we enjoyed and still enjoy or miss in some cases. |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 04 June 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 On the theme of shops of today and yesterday, as the main house shopper today and 50 years ago I do love looking in shops in old and new areas. It is interesting to hear tales from others of the shopping worlds of areas different from the Borehamwood and High Barnet I knew. I worked in holiday jobs in both the greengrocers and central cafe in Barnet High Street and of course remember those old trolley buses that ended there. When I go to the Dorset steam fair near Blandford I enjoy seeing all the old transport vehicles. I have not lost my love of all transport since my days at QE as Transport Society joint-secretary with A Bell. When I see the delivery vans I am reminded of Kilbys store in Borehamwood (at the Furzehill Road end of Shenley Road). The one thing they had over other bigger stores (not so big then) was they used to deliver to houses. It was a delight to see the little green van moving along and they delivered to my nanny in Mildred Avenue (the Furzehill Road side.) I was recently in Newport, Isle of Wight, and went in their big Morrisons - a new delight for me, as Andover and Salisbury do not have one. I was struck by the 'Market Street' part, which reminded me of the old Borehamwood Sainsbury's with whole counters full of stuff with aproned staff serving. I bought some fresh fish and enjoyed the experience (we sad main shoppers enjoy such treats!) Another delight for me was acquiring a Robert Opie company produced Golden Shred mug at Havenstreet station on the IOW Steam Railway. It had a golliwog on it, a reminder of the stickers we used to collect in the product and either stick on the wall or send off for a badge from Robertsons, the manufacturers. |
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NAME: Gerry Hunt DATE: 20 June 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-61 Having returned to the site after a few weeks I'm amazed about the convoluted nature that the path of this thread has taken after my initial innocent posting of a photograph of Leicester House. What a wonderful way conversations, either spoken or written, drift! |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 04 June 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 Regarding replies 12‑20, I enjoyed reading about various products in the Daily Mail of 1/8/2013. There is a series from the book The Middle Class ABC from Fi Cotter Craig and Zebedee Helm. They have got to Y and there were entries under Yeast Extract, Yurts and Yoghurt. For the first it read: "Otherwise known as Marmite, this has long been a favouirite middle-class salty spread, with its tasteful old-fashioned packaging and the fact you get your money's worth, because it lasts for ages. The properly posh and some middlings have solid silver lids on theirs, which are very smart. You can tell if you're in a posh household, as they throw their silver lid away with the jar, when the contents are finished." The references to class and containers I found interesting. My dad was definitely working class but we enjoyed Marmite all the same. I have never been in a posh house with silver lids on Marmite, as far as I know and I have certainly mixed with a lot of middle class and even posh people in my time. |
38th REPLY NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 06 August 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71 I hope I'm not offending anyone if I say that Marmite with a silver lid strikes me as distinctly non-U. You might just as well pour Lea & Perrins from a decanter. |
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NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now DATE: 11 August 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63 I was as surprised as you, Nick, to the reference of Marmite with silver lids. Maybe,knowing some of our eccentric English, there are some who do pour Lea and Perrins from a decanter. I do not use the stuff myself nor either HP Sauce and Heinz salad cream (other brands are available.) We do have decanters and sometimes I persuade family members to use them but the wine is more often poured straight from the bottle, as is the case of milk instead of the milk jug. The latter along with cup and saucer rarely appears apart from the wife's breakfast on her birthday and Mother's Day. The same is probably true with all us Borehamwood working class boys' families. At school I rarely appeared at the houses of boys in other areas, generally regarded as middle class. I am also interested in the reference to U and non-U. Are these still in current useage? I still have my Sloane Ranger Handbook. |
40th REPLY NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 16 August 2013 CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71 Jas - I suspect it's very non-U to use these terms now and the very mention of them probably marks one (me) out as being of a particular vintage. For the record, they were coined in the 1950s by an academic lexicographer called Ross who contributed an article on the subject to Noblesse Oblige, a book edited by Nancy Mitford, of which I still have a paperback copy. Even by the sixties they were being overtaken by such usages as 'swinging'/'dodgy' or simply 'in/'out'. Regarding the latter, I have a marvelllous recording by Serge Gainsbourg and Brigitte Bardot of a song entitled, Qui est 'in', qui est 'out'. (Such Franglais extended to another Gainsbourg song, recorded by Jane Birkin, called Ex-fan des sixties, which reeled off the names of members of what I gather is now, with special reference to Amy Winehouse, sometimes referred to as the '27 club' - Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Brian Jones, Janis J, etc.) |
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