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ORIGINAL MESSAGE
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen
.jpg "James Cowen gallery")
Then & NowDATE: 05 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I was interested to see that the OE event that I recently attended at the school on 16th November 2012 was the 117th Annual Dinner. If it has only been held annually this would make the first one 1895, if an uninterrupted sequence. I do not recall when at school hearing about such an event until recently. Has this always been held at the school or was it merely because that month celebrated the 80th anniversary of the move of the school to Queens Road? I did in my mind think that it was the same as the Dinner Debate especially as the write up about it talked of witty speeches being made. The next Dinner Debate is in fact scheduled to take place on 23rd March 2013 and is apparently the 48th one, so being started in 1966 if continuous. I remember serving the OEs as a waiter when in the then 6th form (now year 12) and so presumably if 48th in some years it was not held. Any information from any about this?
NAME: Nick Dean 
.JPG "Nick Dean gallery")
DATE: 06 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
The Dinner-Debate has not been continuous since 1966 because, after a gap of some years, a group of us revived it in 1971 with the support of G L Smith, among others. The guest speakers on that occasion were two OE authors, Edward Blishen (who, among other things, was the founding editor of Pears Junior Encyclopaedia) and Wilfred De'ath (still writing for The Oldie last month). On the subject of waiting, I recall some mutterings of disapproval after the event (from someone other than Grotty) about a waitress from QE Girls' whose skirt was as short as her top was transparent. The menu and programme from 1971 are in the museum. I have already recorded on thread 75 Timson's dismissive comments about the prospect of such an event!
DATE: 06 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
The Dinner-Debate has not been continuous since 1966 because, after a gap of some years, a group of us revived it in 1971 with the support of G L Smith, among others. The guest speakers on that occasion were two OE authors, Edward Blishen (who, among other things, was the founding editor of Pears Junior Encyclopaedia) and Wilfred De'ath (still writing for The Oldie last month). On the subject of waiting, I recall some mutterings of disapproval after the event (from someone other than Grotty) about a waitress from QE Girls' whose skirt was as short as her top was transparent. The menu and programme from 1971 are in the museum. I have already recorded on thread 75 Timson's dismissive comments about the prospect of such an event!
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 09 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Thanks for that information about the revival of the Dinner Debate. I did not think my maths was faulty. Now there is just an answer needed regarding the Annual Dinner. Interesting news about the waitress. There must have been some who enjoyed that. Who waits on the table at more recent Debates? Is it outside caterers? It should really still be Year 12 pupils as in my day, as it could save on costs and we enjoyed doing it, getting a dinner at the end of it and listening to witty speeches. The cost of the Forty Club Dinner and the Annual Dinner at £24 and £30 respectively was OK. I can afford them but my wife and I recently had a lovely 4 course Sunday lunch in a hotel near Salisbury for £9.50 each, though admittedly without a glass of wine. (I am not an ex-accountant for nothing!). Regarding sending items to the website what would be interesting is to give a list of all past subjects, if there is anyone with all past Elizabethans to hand.
I have enjoyed reading your contributions, Nick, to the site especially some of your amusing recollections. It was interesting you referred to the 2 guest speakers to that revival Debate of 1971. Edward Blishen is the subject of thread 20 by contributors Nigel Palmer and Martyn Day on account of his book largely based on the old school. I have not read it but would like to. Maybe some day I will go to somewhere like the British Library to catch up with all old books I would like to read including EHJ's books. Wilfred de Ath has been in the news of course lately in connection with the Jimmy Savile scandal enquiries. I see in my Google enquiry he is 75 and was arrested in Cambridge last month, November 2012. I hope that he will be found innocent of all the charges, if he is, but deplore the fact his main Wikipedia entry has been deleted by someone, though he is still on the list of distinguished OEs in the Wikipedia QE entry.
Then & NowDATE: 09 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Thanks for that information about the revival of the Dinner Debate. I did not think my maths was faulty. Now there is just an answer needed regarding the Annual Dinner. Interesting news about the waitress. There must have been some who enjoyed that. Who waits on the table at more recent Debates? Is it outside caterers? It should really still be Year 12 pupils as in my day, as it could save on costs and we enjoyed doing it, getting a dinner at the end of it and listening to witty speeches. The cost of the Forty Club Dinner and the Annual Dinner at £24 and £30 respectively was OK. I can afford them but my wife and I recently had a lovely 4 course Sunday lunch in a hotel near Salisbury for £9.50 each, though admittedly without a glass of wine. (I am not an ex-accountant for nothing!). Regarding sending items to the website what would be interesting is to give a list of all past subjects, if there is anyone with all past Elizabethans to hand.
I have enjoyed reading your contributions, Nick, to the site especially some of your amusing recollections. It was interesting you referred to the 2 guest speakers to that revival Debate of 1971. Edward Blishen is the subject of thread 20 by contributors Nigel Palmer and Martyn Day on account of his book largely based on the old school. I have not read it but would like to. Maybe some day I will go to somewhere like the British Library to catch up with all old books I would like to read including EHJ's books. Wilfred de Ath has been in the news of course lately in connection with the Jimmy Savile scandal enquiries. I see in my Google enquiry he is 75 and was arrested in Cambridge last month, November 2012. I hope that he will be found innocent of all the charges, if he is, but deplore the fact his main Wikipedia entry has been deleted by someone, though he is still on the list of distinguished OEs in the Wikipedia QE entry.
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 10 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Sadly I'm running out of repeatable stories! However, just to add something regarding the Dinner Debate, there was a good deal of ad hoc-ery in 1971 due to the lack of continuity. We certainly didn't have outsider caterers - hence, Timson's jibe about its being a school dinner - and two of us trekked up to Tooley Street by car to purchase the wine from a reasonably priced supplier. I think some of the waiters were boys from the middle forms and, if my memory serves, the aforementioned [in reply 1] young lady was the girl friend of one of them. (Incidentally, I recall only one negative observation about the suitability of her very smart outfit). There was an auction of some left over wine and my parents (among several who attended) secured a bottle of German white that was signed by Jack Covington, who returned for the occasion, having retired the previous term.
DATE: 10 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Sadly I'm running out of repeatable stories! However, just to add something regarding the Dinner Debate, there was a good deal of ad hoc-ery in 1971 due to the lack of continuity. We certainly didn't have outsider caterers - hence, Timson's jibe about its being a school dinner - and two of us trekked up to Tooley Street by car to purchase the wine from a reasonably priced supplier. I think some of the waiters were boys from the middle forms and, if my memory serves, the aforementioned [in reply 1] young lady was the girl friend of one of them. (Incidentally, I recall only one negative observation about the suitability of her very smart outfit). There was an auction of some left over wine and my parents (among several who attended) secured a bottle of German white that was signed by Jack Covington, who returned for the occasion, having retired the previous term.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 13 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Thanks for the further info, Nick, and I hope to be able to go to the next Dinner Debate. I do not know yet whether wives and partners may also come. Perhaps that depends on applicant numbers. I have only been to one Dinner Debate since leaving school and i believe if my memory serves me right she did come on that occasion. With dinners at my old Cambridge college sometimes she may come, sometimes not, so she is used to it. Like Caroline Aherne's Mrs Merton I do like a heated debate sometimes. Maybe space may be made on an OE forum to make room for a general debating space rather than waiting once a year, that is if able to go, and using this sometimes rather than twitter.
Then & NowDATE: 13 December 2012
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Thanks for the further info, Nick, and I hope to be able to go to the next Dinner Debate. I do not know yet whether wives and partners may also come. Perhaps that depends on applicant numbers. I have only been to one Dinner Debate since leaving school and i believe if my memory serves me right she did come on that occasion. With dinners at my old Cambridge college sometimes she may come, sometimes not, so she is used to it. Like Caroline Aherne's Mrs Merton I do like a heated debate sometimes. Maybe space may be made on an OE forum to make room for a general debating space rather than waiting once a year, that is if able to go, and using this sometimes rather than twitter.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 10 February 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
The next Dinner Debate at the school (the 48th) is to be held on Saturday 23rd March 2013 at 6 p.m. Booking is via the school shop and I expect to attend with my wife. It looks as if guests are allowed. Booking is via the School Shop and tickets are ₤30 each - as usual a bit pricey for us country folks but is after all but once a year. I look forward to seeing those also going. I enjoy chatting with other OEs even if not of my admission year and previous acquaintance but it will be a bonus if some of those or any other contributors to this website are there also.
Then & NowDATE: 10 February 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
The next Dinner Debate at the school (the 48th) is to be held on Saturday 23rd March 2013 at 6 p.m. Booking is via the school shop and I expect to attend with my wife. It looks as if guests are allowed. Booking is via the School Shop and tickets are ₤30 each - as usual a bit pricey for us country folks but is after all but once a year. I look forward to seeing those also going. I enjoy chatting with other OEs even if not of my admission year and previous acquaintance but it will be a bonus if some of those or any other contributors to this website are there also.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 07 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
The Dinner Debate was held and a report of it may be seen on the QE official site. The EU were very appreciative of those OEs who did go, mostly of the younger sort. It was interesting how the result was decided. A vote was taken before and after and the winners were those who were judged to have altered minds the most rather than the voted winner.
Then & NowDATE: 07 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
The Dinner Debate was held and a report of it may be seen on the QE official site. The EU were very appreciative of those OEs who did go, mostly of the younger sort. It was interesting how the result was decided. A vote was taken before and after and the winners were those who were judged to have altered minds the most rather than the voted winner.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 10 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In reference to Wilfred de Ath, the OE ex TV producer [reply 2] I note from the Daily Mail that his accuser and hence the DPP are not now proceeding with charges against him, apparently on the basis that no other accusers have come forward, unlike with Jimmy Savile.
Then & NowDATE: 10 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In reference to Wilfred de Ath, the OE ex TV producer [reply 2] I note from the Daily Mail that his accuser and hence the DPP are not now proceeding with charges against him, apparently on the basis that no other accusers have come forward, unlike with Jimmy Savile.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 25 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In regard to the OE Annual Dinners and my question [see original message] as to whether this has always been held at the school, I notice from further readings of The Elizabethans on site that these have not always been held there. The December 1960 copy says that the 64th one was held at the Salisbury Hotel and the April 1967 copy says the 70th one was held at the House of Commons. Where the others were held I do not know but the one this year is to be held like last year at the school on the 15th November at 19.30 hours and tickets to attend may be bought from the OE Social Secretary, Simon Lincoln. (Contact the webmaster for further details). At last year's event attendance reached 100 including 12 former pupils who were celebrating the golden anniversary of their joining the school in 1962.
Then & NowDATE: 25 April 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In regard to the OE Annual Dinners and my question [see original message] as to whether this has always been held at the school, I notice from further readings of The Elizabethans on site that these have not always been held there. The December 1960 copy says that the 64th one was held at the Salisbury Hotel and the April 1967 copy says the 70th one was held at the House of Commons. Where the others were held I do not know but the one this year is to be held like last year at the school on the 15th November at 19.30 hours and tickets to attend may be bought from the OE Social Secretary, Simon Lincoln. (Contact the webmaster for further details). At last year's event attendance reached 100 including 12 former pupils who were celebrating the golden anniversary of their joining the school in 1962.
NAME: David Stevenson
DATE: 22 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1967-1974
Nick, I recall both the Speech Day and the Dinner Debate of '71 [see replies 1 & 3] and the Speech Day notice you put in the museum has reminded me that I was part of a wind trio which played some Mozart on that auspicious occasion - as we are named on the notice! I had completely forgotten this - and I am sure everybody else had the moment we finished. The Dinner Debate was held in the Refectory in the evening and I think my then girlfriend Julie from QE Girls (who was 2 years younger) was one of the waitresses conscripted by Luke Dixon. I do recall that she got very drunk on the wine left over! I am sure the occasion was also memorable for two comments during his speech from Luke Dixon: 1. "So tonight we give tribute to Queen Elizabeth's. The school which put the Great in Great Britain, the High in High Barnet and the Queens in Queens Road". 2. "Here we sit in the shadow of Mr Patrick's mighty organ" - in reference of course to the old church organ which sat unused in the corner of the refectory ...
DATE: 22 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1967-1974
Nick, I recall both the Speech Day and the Dinner Debate of '71 [see replies 1 & 3] and the Speech Day notice you put in the museum has reminded me that I was part of a wind trio which played some Mozart on that auspicious occasion - as we are named on the notice! I had completely forgotten this - and I am sure everybody else had the moment we finished. The Dinner Debate was held in the Refectory in the evening and I think my then girlfriend Julie from QE Girls (who was 2 years younger) was one of the waitresses conscripted by Luke Dixon. I do recall that she got very drunk on the wine left over! I am sure the occasion was also memorable for two comments during his speech from Luke Dixon: 1. "So tonight we give tribute to Queen Elizabeth's. The school which put the Great in Great Britain, the High in High Barnet and the Queens in Queens Road". 2. "Here we sit in the shadow of Mr Patrick's mighty organ" - in reference of course to the old church organ which sat unused in the corner of the refectory ...
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 22 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Dave [reply 9], I was aware that JF was the waitress mentioned in my replies 1 & 3 - she was in my sister's form at the girls' school - and I can remember you both coming into East Barnet Library when I worked there during what would now be a gap year spent in Thailand. However, since you appear to have waived anonymity ... Thanks for reminding us of what Luke had to say. These gems had escaped my memory, but maybe, as a waiter (were you?), you had consumed a little less wine at that stage than I had!
DATE: 22 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Dave [reply 9], I was aware that JF was the waitress mentioned in my replies 1 & 3 - she was in my sister's form at the girls' school - and I can remember you both coming into East Barnet Library when I worked there during what would now be a gap year spent in Thailand. However, since you appear to have waived anonymity ... Thanks for reminding us of what Luke had to say. These gems had escaped my memory, but maybe, as a waiter (were you?), you had consumed a little less wine at that stage than I had!
NAME: David Stevenson
DATE: 24 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1967-1974
Nick - hadn't come across this thread until my reply 9 was moved here from Thread 28. I see you are a regular contributor. I was a few years below you at school and couldn't previously recall our paths crossing. But I do very vaguely remember going to East Barnet library with JF to meet one of her friends. Fascinating that this was your sister. I lost contact with JF after she switched her affections to a leading light in the QE drama society (or whatever it was called). His name escapes me. And for the record - I was a waiter. Might even have been charged with keeping your glass full - although JF would have been a considerably more attractive proposition.
DATE: 24 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1967-1974
Nick - hadn't come across this thread until my reply 9 was moved here from Thread 28. I see you are a regular contributor. I was a few years below you at school and couldn't previously recall our paths crossing. But I do very vaguely remember going to East Barnet library with JF to meet one of her friends. Fascinating that this was your sister. I lost contact with JF after she switched her affections to a leading light in the QE drama society (or whatever it was called). His name escapes me. And for the record - I was a waiter. Might even have been charged with keeping your glass full - although JF would have been a considerably more attractive proposition.
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 26 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
For completeness, it was Bernie Pinnock who (in a minority of one, I should imagine) took exception to Julie's appearance [see 1st reply]. Quite what he had made of Mrs Swan [see thread 66], who was in his own department, I'm unsure.
DATE: 26 June 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
For completeness, it was Bernie Pinnock who (in a minority of one, I should imagine) took exception to Julie's appearance [see 1st reply]. Quite what he had made of Mrs Swan [see thread 66], who was in his own department, I'm unsure.
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 27 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Couldn't help noticing that, in his latest piece for The Oldie, Wilfred De'ath [replies 2 & 7] has made one of his occasional allusions to the school. Claiming, as a BBC producer, to have discovered Kenny Everett, he says that the latter's "self-destructiveness, from which I suffer myself, is the consequence of deep-seated insecurity ... in [my case], from being the only grammar school boy at an Oxford college stuffed with public school boys". I've little doubt there were snobbery and cliquiness during his time at Oxford, as, in certain ways, there were in mine. However, I'd be fascinated to know what his erstwhile headmaster would have made of his assertion. Though before my time, I imagine that Jenkins would have thought it as part of the school's raison d'etre to prepare boys for such situations - if, indeed, he regarded QE as dissimilar to a public school. I remember Derek Fry (who went to St Andrews) saying something to the effect that Jenkins only really recognised two universities and was apt to refer dismissively (jokingly?) to one as "that place in the Fens". Even so, somewhere in his autobiography, Jenkins recorded his concern that an imbalance between Oxford and Cambridge had developed in the common room and the steps he took to address this.
DATE: 27 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Couldn't help noticing that, in his latest piece for The Oldie, Wilfred De'ath [replies 2 & 7] has made one of his occasional allusions to the school. Claiming, as a BBC producer, to have discovered Kenny Everett, he says that the latter's "self-destructiveness, from which I suffer myself, is the consequence of deep-seated insecurity ... in [my case], from being the only grammar school boy at an Oxford college stuffed with public school boys". I've little doubt there were snobbery and cliquiness during his time at Oxford, as, in certain ways, there were in mine. However, I'd be fascinated to know what his erstwhile headmaster would have made of his assertion. Though before my time, I imagine that Jenkins would have thought it as part of the school's raison d'etre to prepare boys for such situations - if, indeed, he regarded QE as dissimilar to a public school. I remember Derek Fry (who went to St Andrews) saying something to the effect that Jenkins only really recognised two universities and was apt to refer dismissively (jokingly?) to one as "that place in the Fens". Even so, somewhere in his autobiography, Jenkins recorded his concern that an imbalance between Oxford and Cambridge had developed in the common room and the steps he took to address this.
NAME: Alan Pyle 
DATE: 28 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1948-1953
In my time it was accepted that the only universities to be considered by boys were Oxford and Cambridge with the possible addition of London for those going into medicine.
DATE: 28 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1948-1953
In my time it was accepted that the only universities to be considered by boys were Oxford and Cambridge with the possible addition of London for those going into medicine.
15th REPLY
NAME: Nigel Wood.jpg "Nigel Wood")
DATE: 30 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
Bored with some task, I happened to turn on Radio 4 one afternoon about forty years ago, and caught most of a monologue - some man reflecting on his days at school, and on a return visit he'd made, after the school had become comprehensive. He mentioned green-tiled corridors, bound copies of Punch in the library, and - the clincher - the buildings in the shape of an E. His account of the return visit contrasted, if I remember rightly, sad and slightly bemused OEs in sports jackets and ties, relics of grammar school days, with the more inclusive, cosmopolitan and real-world QE that he thought the school had become. The speaker, it was announced at the end of the talk, was Wilfred De'Ath. I recalled S E Alford (c.1958) citing him - perhaps without wholehearted approval - as an OE who was having a successful career in broadcasting. I sent off to the Beeb for a transcript of the talk - and was actually sent one (for a fee). I've still got it somewhere, though it hasn't surfaced for years.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 30 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have not till now been a reader of The Oldie magazine. I have not seen it in the shops and suspect therefore it is a subscription only magazine, which you, Nick, appear to get or to see regularly. However I was recently in the Andover Oxfam shop and spied a copy of Down and Out, a series of essays by Wilfred de'Ath with cartoon pictures by Larry (published in 2003). I was amazed by his tales of travelling in England and France by bus and train, usually without paying his fare and his stays in prisons and down and out shelters and hotels paid for by others, a policy not to be recommended to us more honest and more money rich citizens. As reported in the news at least another 10 years have been survived and I would be interested to learn more. Reference is made to his also writing a full autobiography. Only one reference is made in Down and Out to his Oxford college in saying they put him up there for 7 days and no reference to his QE days.
Then & NowDATE: 30 August 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have not till now been a reader of The Oldie magazine. I have not seen it in the shops and suspect therefore it is a subscription only magazine, which you, Nick, appear to get or to see regularly. However I was recently in the Andover Oxfam shop and spied a copy of Down and Out, a series of essays by Wilfred de'Ath with cartoon pictures by Larry (published in 2003). I was amazed by his tales of travelling in England and France by bus and train, usually without paying his fare and his stays in prisons and down and out shelters and hotels paid for by others, a policy not to be recommended to us more honest and more money rich citizens. As reported in the news at least another 10 years have been survived and I would be interested to learn more. Reference is made to his also writing a full autobiography. Only one reference is made in Down and Out to his Oxford college in saying they put him up there for 7 days and no reference to his QE days.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 03 September 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I am interested in all the recent replies to this thread, from Nick, Alan and Nigel. I do not know what Oxford college W de A went to but find it surprising that he thought he was the only grammar school guy amongst public school chaps. I wouldn't have thought this to be the case even at Magdalen College.
In regard to the percentage of grammar school to private/ public schools (an odd misnomer as they are the same,) when I went to Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge in 1964 there were probably more grammar school pupils than public ones, though I have not to hand the college magazine to prove it. This was possibly the case at other Oxford and Cambridge colleges. Now there are also comprehensive educated students at both Oxford and the other place in the Fens. When I attended a recent boat club dinner at my old college I was sitting next to a pretty lady who came from a comprehensive school background, 1 of 2 who came to Cambridge from her school and who was in the college 1st Ladies' boat. I found this progress pleasing both in regard to comprehensive education and ladies now being part of the college pupils. My conversation with her was much enjoyed. One of Andover's comprehensives pupils have recently been welcomed at Oxford University as a group.
Of course with all the places at the old Oxbridge places now available to ladies and comprehensive pupils there is even more competition I should imagine by the sheer arithmetic but all will just have to try harder for places, if that really is thought to be the best option. To some extent there are a few extra colleges in the Oxbridge fold and Girton College in Cambridge now admits men as well as ladies (I enjoy cheeering them on in the Mays races.) There are certainly many other good universities and some of my year who went to other universities than Oxbridge, which I must admit was pushed a tad, no doubt enjoyed them and prospered. There are interesting joint courses to be considered. I was talking to a science teacher from a Basildon comprehensive last week and she studied english and physics. Two of my children went to Exeter Uni and two to ex-polys (Hatfield and Bournemouth) and all have prospered so far with jobs and enjoying their courses.
Then & NowDATE: 03 September 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I am interested in all the recent replies to this thread, from Nick, Alan and Nigel. I do not know what Oxford college W de A went to but find it surprising that he thought he was the only grammar school guy amongst public school chaps. I wouldn't have thought this to be the case even at Magdalen College.
In regard to the percentage of grammar school to private/ public schools (an odd misnomer as they are the same,) when I went to Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge in 1964 there were probably more grammar school pupils than public ones, though I have not to hand the college magazine to prove it. This was possibly the case at other Oxford and Cambridge colleges. Now there are also comprehensive educated students at both Oxford and the other place in the Fens. When I attended a recent boat club dinner at my old college I was sitting next to a pretty lady who came from a comprehensive school background, 1 of 2 who came to Cambridge from her school and who was in the college 1st Ladies' boat. I found this progress pleasing both in regard to comprehensive education and ladies now being part of the college pupils. My conversation with her was much enjoyed. One of Andover's comprehensives pupils have recently been welcomed at Oxford University as a group.
Of course with all the places at the old Oxbridge places now available to ladies and comprehensive pupils there is even more competition I should imagine by the sheer arithmetic but all will just have to try harder for places, if that really is thought to be the best option. To some extent there are a few extra colleges in the Oxbridge fold and Girton College in Cambridge now admits men as well as ladies (I enjoy cheeering them on in the Mays races.) There are certainly many other good universities and some of my year who went to other universities than Oxbridge, which I must admit was pushed a tad, no doubt enjoyed them and prospered. There are interesting joint courses to be considered. I was talking to a science teacher from a Basildon comprehensive last week and she studied english and physics. Two of my children went to Exeter Uni and two to ex-polys (Hatfield and Bournemouth) and all have prospered so far with jobs and enjoying their courses.
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 17 September 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
The recent excellent (and ironically titled) book by Alwyn W Turner, A Classless Society: Britain in the 1990s, refers to the post-war decline in the proportion of Oxbridge places taken by people from private schools, such that, just before my time (1969), the latter accounted for 38% at Oxford. However, by the end of the century, the proportions for Oxbridge as a whole were much closer, the state sector accounting for 53% (with applications as between state and private being roughly equal). Turner appears to attribute the relative dip in numbers from the state sector to the demise of grammar schools, notably when Mrs Thatcher was Education Secretary. Not quite sure what effect co-residence has had on proportions, though, as Jas observes, it will certainly have raised academic standards (as well as being thoroughly desirable in its own right).
DATE: 17 September 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
The recent excellent (and ironically titled) book by Alwyn W Turner, A Classless Society: Britain in the 1990s, refers to the post-war decline in the proportion of Oxbridge places taken by people from private schools, such that, just before my time (1969), the latter accounted for 38% at Oxford. However, by the end of the century, the proportions for Oxbridge as a whole were much closer, the state sector accounting for 53% (with applications as between state and private being roughly equal). Turner appears to attribute the relative dip in numbers from the state sector to the demise of grammar schools, notably when Mrs Thatcher was Education Secretary. Not quite sure what effect co-residence has had on proportions, though, as Jas observes, it will certainly have raised academic standards (as well as being thoroughly desirable in its own right).
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 20 October 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Regarding reply 13 et seq, an alumnus of Welwyn Garden City GS has written to The Oldie to say that he was at Oriel with 'Wilf' De'ath in the late '50s and that he reckons about 40% of the college's undergraduates were from grammar schools.
DATE: 20 October 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Regarding reply 13 et seq, an alumnus of Welwyn Garden City GS has written to The Oldie to say that he was at Oriel with 'Wilf' De'ath in the late '50s and that he reckons about 40% of the college's undergraduates were from grammar schools.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 14 November 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have recently received my Sidney Sussex College Cambridge 2013 annual and it quotes some figures relevant to the state/private sector balance,which may or may not be similar elsewhere in Oxbridge but I suspect it probably is in general(average)terms. There was an even split in terms of both gender and arts/science balance. State students made up 68% of the UK-educated office holders and 6% were from areas with significantly lower progression to higher education than the national average. Looking through the list of entrants it would appear that about 25% went through either the fully comprehensive school route or the comprehensive/sixth form college route. There were no students up from QE Barnet but 1 each from Haberdashers Aske's School for Boys and for Girls listed as at Elstree. I recall QEs used to play in my time against the boy's school at both rugby and cricket.
Then & NowDATE: 14 November 2013
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have recently received my Sidney Sussex College Cambridge 2013 annual and it quotes some figures relevant to the state/private sector balance,which may or may not be similar elsewhere in Oxbridge but I suspect it probably is in general(average)terms. There was an even split in terms of both gender and arts/science balance. State students made up 68% of the UK-educated office holders and 6% were from areas with significantly lower progression to higher education than the national average. Looking through the list of entrants it would appear that about 25% went through either the fully comprehensive school route or the comprehensive/sixth form college route. There were no students up from QE Barnet but 1 each from Haberdashers Aske's School for Boys and for Girls listed as at Elstree. I recall QEs used to play in my time against the boy's school at both rugby and cricket.
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