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DATE: 17 March 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: inmate 1957-64
Like many people, you will never see me at a black tie event.
.JPG "Nick Dean gallery")
DATE: 22 March 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Does anyone know when black tie became de rigueur for the dinner-debate? Those of us who resurrected this function in 1971 [reply 1 et seq] made no such stipulation, though I recall that, in the years immediately following, some people sported bow ties with their increasingly long hair, as much for a laugh as anything. Possibly the present aim is to emulate the Oxford and Cambridge Unions, although, even in my time at Oxford, only officers of the society and those giving paper speeches wore white tie; everyone else wore whatever he or she wished (mostly jeans). Admittedly the white tie contingent always dined together beforehand, which could be a parallel: perhaps the Teacher In Charge Of Debating could offer an explanation?
.jpg "James Cowen gallery")
Then & NowDATE: 26 March 2015
The school dinner debates are of course different from the Oxford and Cambridge Union debates, as the dinner takes place at the school before the debate and in fact the dinner takes up the major part of the time. Pre dinner drinks and walk to the refectory 6.00 to 6.30 p.m., Dinner 6.30 to 9.00 p.m., Debate 9.00 p.m. to 10.15 p.m. After dinner chat 10.15 p.m to whatever (in our case to 10.30 p.m.). This time present there were a number of parents, whom I talked to at dinner as well as OE Henry Griffiths, who though three years older than me I knew as a Borehamwood chap and whom I played at table tennis in those days. There were the usual vast number of pupils and I asked Mr Ryan if attendance was compulsory. He said "No, but the boys are encouraged to come." He said many have expressed appreciation of the function in after years. It was good to see Barrie Martin, the chair of the governors, and his wife there. He is always pleasing to talk to.
Re Jas's use of 'chair', see W16/49
Then & NowDATE: 28 March 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63
Remember those rebellious years when most of us went to QE and hung bicvcles up in the belfry, and wrote "Mojo" in the snow outside the school [see Thread 8] and sprinkled the stage with exploding iodine and ammonium hydroxide crystals? What would the reaction be if someone turned up to the Dinner Debate without the obligatory 'Black Tie', wearing perhaps a hoodie or a polo shirt? Nothing I suspect, proving how pointless the whole exercise is.
Then & NowDATE: 04 April 2015
That is an interesting question from you, Martyn, in the realms of speculation i.e. "What would the reaction be if someone turned up to the Dinner Debate without the obligatory 'Black Tie', wearing perhaps a hoodie or a polo shirt?" and your answer "Nothing I suspect, proving how pointless the whole exercise is." I beg to differ, as the expression goes. I think action would be taken in relation to both pupils and OEs. In the case of pupils I think one of the following would speak out: Mr Neil Enright (the Headmaster) or Mr David Ryan (one of the assistant heads) and probably this would be taken on by the latter. Action might also be joined by the Head of Debating and/or the politics teacher who also attend these events. In regard to OEs I think at least one of the following would speak out: Mr David Farrer (the OE President) or Martyn Bradish (the OE Treasurer). I myself would support any words or action. There are many school events allowing casual dress attire.
In addition to pupils and OEs at the Dinner Debates there are parents who attend. In the unlikely event of one of the male parents attending without a 'Black Tie' or coloured bow tie, which seems to be sported by some and apparently allowed, I do not know what action would be taken. Certainly I believe if they wore a hoodie or a polo shirt words would be said about the suitability, possibly by the Headmaster, but whether they would be banned and the police called if there was a fracas I have my doubts. Maybe he would be advised about coming in appropriate attire for another occasion or maybe would be told that he was not welcome on future occasions. We may all speculate but an actual appearance of inappropriate wear would be the true test. In regard to OEs maybe if you are sufficiently rebellious you may test the situation, Martyn, or anyone else so inclined to do so.
DATE: 04 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Following the attributed remarks about Cambridge as "that place in the Fens" (EHJ, per D B Fry) [reply 13] and a "street corner university" (Sam C0ocks, per David Farrer) [reply 44], we now have De'ath, W in the latest issue of The Oldie: "Any excuse to visit the city I love [Oxford] - because it is a real city, not a dreary provincial town like Cambridge". I note also that, having previously complained that the (disputed) preponderance of public schoolboys at Oriel led to his feeling excluded [reply 13], WD describes his tutorial partner of 1957 as "a charming Harrovian".
Then & NowDATE: 07 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In regard to the 'Black Tie' controversy I do recall when one boy at school in my class appeared without a tie and was sent home to get one by Frostie, who was his housemaster. The pupil thought off his own bat that ties may be dispensed with in hot weather. He was suitably disabused of this idea and returned later wearing a suitable tie. I may have posted this story before but if this is the case, it would have been long ago, and is of some relevance as to whether anyone takes action in regard to disobeying the status quo. Actually I personally rarely wear ties etc. these days and do regard my T shirts and non-tie wearing as a blessing but I am still ready to do so for special occasions. Another recent occasion was attending my youngest daughter's OU graduation ceremony at the Barbican. My wife said I hope you are going to wear a jacket, shirt and tie and I did so. No-one would have objected to my going in my normal attire but I was happy to obey.
DATE: 09 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
I remember that in either 1C or 2C Jack Curry began a French lesson by removing his tie and inviting us to do the same if we wished. I'm sure there were instances of this involving other masters, but that one stuck in my mind as it seemed quite daring at the time! On one occasion I - alone, I think - removed my jacket while waiting on a hot day for Sam C0cks to arrive, only to be told, in an unusually matter-of-fact tone, "Put your coat on" (no drawn-out emphasis on "on", nor exclamation mark). As regards dress for the dinner-debate, the questions remain (as Bertie Wooster might have posed them), "When black tie? Why black tie?"
Then & NowDATE: 09 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63
All this talk of Dinner Debates and 'Black Ties' reminds of a man who tried to get into a posh restaurant without a tie. The doorman refused him entry, so the man returned to his car, took out a set of jump leads from the boot, and tied them around his neck like a tie. He showed the result to the doorman. "Can I come in now?" he asked." Yes you can", said the doorman, "but don't start anything!"
Regarding Jas's hoodie and polo shirt challenge I will raise the matter with available staff if I go back to the school in November to take part in the Careers Fair. I could even raise the other option - to turn up to the Dinner Debate wearing nothing but a Black Tie!
Then & NowDATE: 14 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I like very much, Martyn, the joke about the jump leads in place of the tie. Enough has been said about black tie events by me perhaps, so I will move on to other Dinner Debate subjects. I was a bit flattered by the lady parent of current pupils at the school asking whether I was a parent of current pupils. This contrasts vastly with the time I went for a local postman's job when fed up with getting no agency auditing assignments, when the lady manager said "What age exactly are you?" Despite my age I still managed to deliver the post for many months. I had to tell the parent lady that I was in fact an OE and left the school about 52 years ago in 1963. She said "What a pity I must have missed the first Dinner Debate in 1965." I was able to tell her about the missing years when it was not held as per Nick's reply on this theme and thus maybe was in there at the beginning of this event or soon after. At least I was not as old as Henry Griffiths, sitting nearby.
In regard to Mr De'Ath's comments [reply 66] in the Oldie, he does of course live mostly in the Cambridge area now. He should not grumble too much about the so-called dreary provincial town that gives him a place to live. He is of course noted for his outspokenness in a mildly amusing manner for the magazine. Of course Cambridge is just as much a real city as Oxford, in my opinion and that of many other people. I like the use of the initial WD it reminds me of that class of standard engines (90xxxx), the WD Austerity 2-10-0s. Wikipedia says that these had the same power output as the 2-8-0s but a lighter axle load making them suitable for secondary lines. Is WD in Cambridge more suitable for secondary lines also? At least WD in Cambridge is still working. Of the three preserved WD engines in the UK I believe none are working but are on display or in various stages of renovation.
.jpg "Nigel Wood")
DATE: 16 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
Many years ago a colleague and dear friend of mine was about drive to work when a neighbour asked him if he had any 'jumblies'. Despite asking him to repeat his request, my friend never twigged what he wanted, until he'd got to work. It was quite early in the morning. Does the mishearing constitute a mondegreen?
I won't say which reply this refers to - work it out! As for mondegreen, it seems it has to be something misheard in the lyrics of a song. It took me ages to work out Aretha Franklin's "Stand by your lavatory".
Then & NowDATE: 17 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
At the Dinner Debate the parent of current pupils sitting near me asked me whether Eric Shearly pulled my ears when at school. I replied "No but I did receive some stinging blows on the hand from a ruler." Perhaps I got off lightly. The name Eric Shearly has certainly survived over the years. There are many references to him in the latest copy of The Elizabethan I have just received. Of course Eric is remembered in one of the newish buildings named after him but I said I would have to miss a concert due to be held there, as I live so far away.
DATE: 17 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
... although, of course [reply 70], Cambridge doesn't have a cathedral. But, what the heck; neither do Brighton and Hove.
Then & NowDATE: 20 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
You have, Nigel and Vic [reply 71+footnote], opened a whole Wider World theme for abundant replies, which hopefully others will launch into. I have never heard the term 'mondegreen' before and was intrigued to read the link of its origin. We no doubt all have interesting examples of misheard lyrics in songs. We often giggle over our children when younger singing misheard lyrics at the top of their voices. My son Paul used to sing "Daily daily Ossum" for "Davey Davey Crocket". My daughter Marie used to sing "My just called to say me lub you." Of course one of the standard word change singing is "Whilst shepherds washed their socks by night" - heard every Christmas. Additionally to this not just song lyrics are misheard. Whilst working at East Berks Health Authority I used to think the lady accountant I worked for was talking respectfully to some bigwig Sir Hale on the phone when she was in fact speaking to a guy called Sohail, who had no exalted position whatsoever. I have signed up to the 'Fun with Words' website, which you have cross referenced to, Vic. I look forward to postings to my internet account but with a little trepidation given so many other communications I am bombarded with, many of which I do not remember asking for, a bit like nuisance phone calls or junk mail in the post. Yes, I think any more mondegreens had better go in the English language thread, with links back to here.
Then & NowDATE: 20 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Well, the Oxford v Cambridge boat races on the Thames have come and gone, including the women's race there for the first time. It was disappointing for us ex-Cambridge men with another clean sweep for Oxford. There was, however, some compensation this week when Gonville and Gaius of Cambridge beat Magdalen College, Oxford by 255 points to 105. The Magdalen College crew were good but in the event the Cambridge college was better. Especially remarkable, of course, in the team was Ted Loveday with all his very quick answers. This is the first time Gaius has won it compared to Magdalen, Oxford's 4 times (1997,1998, 2004,2011). I recall staying in Magdalen when going up to Oxford for entry exams prior to getting a place in Cambridge. They have lovely grounds to walk round in the evening. My old college (Sidney Sussex) has won it twice (1971 and 1978) but that is a long while ago now. Although this reply is relevant to this thread because of the recurring theme of Oxford and Cambridge rivalry (reply 70, for example), any further replies about sporting rivalry between them will go in the sports thread, with links back to here.
Then & NowDATE: 21 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
That's a good point, Nick, concerning cathedrals [reply 73]. Why Oxford has a cathedral and not Cambridge is a little perplexing. Perhaps historical research may explain. I certainly think the Kings College services at Christmas and Easter are as magnificent as many of the Cathedral services elsewhere. St Mary's in Cambridge is also a grand big church, as contrasting with the tiny Round Church where I have attended gatherings. I have seen a road sign in the environs of Salisbury, which of course does have a cathedral, saying to the town centre, when strictly speaking it should say to the city centre. I wonder whether this categorisation of cities with a cathedral should perhaps be abandoned, as probably the majority of citizens think of large places such as London, Birmingham and Manchester as cities and other places much smaller as towns. There were of course locomotives of the LMS Coronation class named after cities, 21 of them. Neither Salisbury nor Oxford nor, of course, Cambridge was among them. Alas, but one of them has been preserved i.e. City of Birmingham, formerly in the Birmingham Science Museum but now apparently at Think Tank, Birmingham. Of course two other Coronation class Duchesses have also been preserved (Duchess of Hamilton and Duchess of Sutherland).
77th REPLY
NAME: Vic Coughtrey
Then & NowDATE: 21 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59
There are some interesting facts regarding cities and cathedrals here in Wales. Cardiff is in effect two cities in one and has two cathedrals - St David's Metropolitan and Llandaff. Politically, administratively and physically, the City of Llandaff is within the City of Cardiff. It was not always so. In fact, at one time it was larger and more important than what was then the nearby village of Cardiff and has been a city for very much longer. The second largest city of Wales is Newport, which has a cathedral. However, any passer-by who didn't already know would refuse to believe that the small, outwardly gloomy, traffic-encircled parish church of St Woolo, King and Confessor, was the cathedral, were it not for the name board outside. To be fair, it was only in 1949 that the ancient church had cathedralhood thrust upon it. St David's in Pembrokeshire is a village with a population of about 2% of that of Newport and is by far Britain's smallest city, but by comparison with Newport's St Woolo's its great cathedral is pretty impressive. In fact, the cathedral and grounds occupy the major part of the place. And here's a twist: between 1888 when St David's was stripped of its city status and 1994 when the Queen insisted that it should be restored, St David's had a cathedral but was not a city!
DATE: 22 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
Is it true, or is it just a misapprehension of mine, that the cathedrals of Bangor, St David's and Llandaff are all set in 'hollows' and are relatively hidden. Is this so for those of Brecon, Newport and St Asaph?
Then & NowDATE: 22 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In regard to the town v city discussions I was reading the Lonely Planet's Great Britain guide the other day and note in the entries for Oxford it mentions the genteel city of Oxford and its being one of the world's most famous university towns in the same sentence. Some other books I have recently read on Cambridge such as the Hutchinson's Cyclopedia also describe it as the City of Cambridge, presumably incorrectly, if the need of a cathedral is paramount. I am more involved whether where we live in Ludgershall is a town or a village. We now have a town council and indeed a small town council office, so it must be a town but it is not a town in the general accepted sense like Andover and Marlborough. My wife Ayleen says I still think its a village, whatever those councillors may call it with ambitions above their true status.
80th REPLY
NAME: Vic Coughtrey Then & NowDATE: 22 April 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59
Well, Nigel [reply 78] Bangor and St David's Cathedrals are definitely in hollows. I wouldn't describe the location of Llandaff Cathedral as a hollow exactly, but it's beside the Taff (Llandaff means 'sanctified land by the Taff'), so it's certainly not on a hill. I've never been to St Asaph, so don't know about that. Brecon Cathedral is halfway up a hill near the city centre and hardly concealed. Newport Cathedral is on what is probably the highest part of the city centre but is somewhat concealed anyway due to its small size and cluttered surroundings. Regarding your reply 79, Jas, it seems that since 1888 there has been no requirement for a town to have a cathedral in order to apply for city status. In fact Cardiff Cathedral is Roman Catholic, so I assume it wouldn't have counted anyway. Milton Keynes was all geared up to start calling itself a city, but for some reason the status was never granted. Many cities, including Cambridge in 1951, have been granted city status since 1888, so whether or not such cities boast a diocesan seat is irrelevant. The Mayor of Cambridge certainly doesn't look too uncomfortable with the 'city' tag! The desire to make Birmingham a city may have had something to do with the decision to do away with the cathedral requirement: it became a city in 1889 but had no cathedral at the time.