Stapylton Field
WW Board
contact
where?
home
museum
contributors
former staff
editlog
Vic's notes
hot threads
All threads MAIN MESSAGE BOARD Number list
< Thread 148 Thread 149 (56 replies so far) Thread 150 >
< Thread 148 Thread 149 (56 replies so far) Thread 150 >
Replies 1 - 20
replies 21-40 > replies 41-56 >>
ORIGINAL MESSAGE
NAME: Nick Dean
.JPG "Nick Dean gallery")
DATE: 06 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960-1965
Curious piece in The Times by Giles Coren (5 April) about things the Queen has never done. These include (and I quote) "She has never said: 'No, honestly, I wasn't at East Barnet Grammar School in the Thirties. I truly don't think we know each other'". It turns out that, although Coren and his sister Victoria both went to independent schools, their late father Alan Coren was at East Barnet. In fact, I seem to recall the latter mentioning in an article how, when living in Potters Bar, he used to drive to Barnet every Saturday just to buy a seedy plait loaf from Victoria Bakery (something still I do myself, though less frequently and from further north).
This all reminded me that what the Queen did do was visit QE Girls in the 1950s, and I distinctly remember Grahame Morris telling us (in the late '60s) that this was assumed to have been for the purpose of deciding whether it would be a suitable place to educate Princess Anne. (Evidently not, as she went to Benenden.) This may also have been the occasion on which Boris expressed surprise that a school of such antiquity as our own had produced so few people of real distinction (by which I suppose he meant truly national figures). In the '60s I would have been aware of two VCs and an Archbishop of Tuam (Broughton), but the latter is maybe stretching a point and I didn't know where Tuam was (Co Galway, actually). Am I missing anyone (apart from the mixed bag on Wikipedia, that is)?
1st REPLY
NAME: Roger Nolan
DATE: 09 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960 to 1967
You make an interesting point Nick. I have long wondered why QE seems to have so few former pupils of distinction. Friends Reunited have always listed famous former pupils (although I have not been on the site for ages so I am not sure whether they still do) and I have noticed that many of the schools that friends and former colleagues attended often have very many distinguished former pupils. I wonder is it that the school produced only under achievers or did we at QE tend to hide our lights under a bushel. Alternatively was the standard of teaching such that few people succeeded in achieving renown. However, this is difficult to accept given that QE tended to recruit the brightest pupils from the surrounding area. This surely is a conundrum. wonder what views others have. Incidentally, I know for a fact that one person who I knew well and is listed on Wikipedia as having been a QE pupil was never at the school and in fact by sheer coincidence, he went to East Barnet Grammar!
NAME: Andrew Hersom
DATE: 12 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960 - 1968
It all rather depends what you mean by "distinctive". I am not au fait with Friends Reunited but the article in Wikipedia on QE lists a substantial number of "notable" former pupils, not as many as Haberdashers but rather more than East Barnet Grammar! But does this really matter? I don't think that producing large numbers of "notable" or "distinctive" former pupils is the point of a secondary school; more important is helping ex-pupils to achieve their full potential afterwards, whether in academia, business, civil service, law, media, military, politics or the professions. And the ability to be "distinctive" in some of these areas may be difficult. By the way, the list of notable former pupils in Wikipedia is not comprehensive and doesn't include from our era for example, Jonathan Hadgraft who is Emeritus Professor of Biophysical Chemistry at The School of Pharmacy, University of London and John Bintliff who is now Professor of Classical Archaeology at the University of Leiden. There are other OEs from our era, for example the engineer Bob Hayter, who also went on to interesting and I assume productive careers.
DATE: 12 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960 - 1968
It all rather depends what you mean by "distinctive". I am not au fait with Friends Reunited but the article in Wikipedia on QE lists a substantial number of "notable" former pupils, not as many as Haberdashers but rather more than East Barnet Grammar! But does this really matter? I don't think that producing large numbers of "notable" or "distinctive" former pupils is the point of a secondary school; more important is helping ex-pupils to achieve their full potential afterwards, whether in academia, business, civil service, law, media, military, politics or the professions. And the ability to be "distinctive" in some of these areas may be difficult. By the way, the list of notable former pupils in Wikipedia is not comprehensive and doesn't include from our era for example, Jonathan Hadgraft who is Emeritus Professor of Biophysical Chemistry at The School of Pharmacy, University of London and John Bintliff who is now Professor of Classical Archaeology at the University of Leiden. There are other OEs from our era, for example the engineer Bob Hayter, who also went on to interesting and I assume productive careers.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen 
.jpg "James Cowen gallery")
Then & Now
DATE: 13 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have found the Wikipedia system very reliable generally, Roger, but it does depend for accuracy on people putting on accurate info. or on others seeing errors to let them know. It would be helpful for all to supply the revised info. about the non-attendee at QE's. The whole subject raised of achievement of pupils raises many issues. Some such as the standard of teaching at QEs have already been raised elsewhere on the site. I think personally the standard of teaching was probably as good as most nearby establishments and indeed nationally. As for QE recruiting the brightest pupils from surrounding areas, did they? There were other distinguished North London and Herts schools. Maybe today with the initial entrance exams and the school ethos there is even more a striving for excellence. It is reflected in so many fields, as shown on school notice boards and the official QE site. In future years in the wider worlds there may be more distinctions.
NOTE FROM VIC: Anyone can edit Wikipedia entries - just click on 'edit'. That facility is, of course, a double-edged sword. If you don't feel confident about altering something yourself, there's a 'talk' link at the beginning of each page, so that you can bring a possible error to the attention of others.
Then & NowDATE: 13 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I have found the Wikipedia system very reliable generally, Roger, but it does depend for accuracy on people putting on accurate info. or on others seeing errors to let them know. It would be helpful for all to supply the revised info. about the non-attendee at QE's. The whole subject raised of achievement of pupils raises many issues. Some such as the standard of teaching at QEs have already been raised elsewhere on the site. I think personally the standard of teaching was probably as good as most nearby establishments and indeed nationally. As for QE recruiting the brightest pupils from surrounding areas, did they? There were other distinguished North London and Herts schools. Maybe today with the initial entrance exams and the school ethos there is even more a striving for excellence. It is reflected in so many fields, as shown on school notice boards and the official QE site. In future years in the wider worlds there may be more distinctions.
NOTE FROM VIC: Anyone can edit Wikipedia entries - just click on 'edit'. That facility is, of course, a double-edged sword. If you don't feel confident about altering something yourself, there's a 'talk' link at the beginning of each page, so that you can bring a possible error to the attention of others.
NAME: Nick Dean
DATE: 14 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
It doesn't matter in the slightest that the school hasn't produced anyone really famous. I think Morris [original message] was merely expressing his surprise as an historian that this should have been the case after almost 400 years. Incidentally, it seems I was mistaken in thinking that Broughton was Archbishop of Tuam; that distinction goes to an early Headmaster called Boyle. Broughton was a bishop in Australia. I can almost hear Timson putting me right on this matter ("... if indeed you know where Tuam is - or Australia for that matter ...")
< DATE: 14 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
It doesn't matter in the slightest that the school hasn't produced anyone really famous. I think Morris [original message] was merely expressing his surprise as an historian that this should have been the case after almost 400 years. Incidentally, it seems I was mistaken in thinking that Broughton was Archbishop of Tuam; that distinction goes to an early Headmaster called Boyle. Broughton was a bishop in Australia. I can almost hear Timson putting me right on this matter ("... if indeed you know where Tuam is - or Australia for that matter ...")
NAME: Mike Cottrell .jpg "Richard Dilley & Mike Cottrell")
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
I remember being at school with Tim Bell although he was 3 or 4 years ahead of me. He went on to become Maggie Thatcher's public relation guru and was rewarded with a baronetcy and the title Lord Bell for his 'good works' in securing 3 general election victories for her. Certainly at the time he could be described as a truly national figure [Nick's original message], but will anyone remember him in 50 years time? I don't think so. I try not to dwell too much on the 80s.
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
I remember being at school with Tim Bell although he was 3 or 4 years ahead of me. He went on to become Maggie Thatcher's public relation guru and was rewarded with a baronetcy and the title Lord Bell for his 'good works' in securing 3 general election victories for her. Certainly at the time he could be described as a truly national figure [Nick's original message], but will anyone remember him in 50 years time? I don't think so. I try not to dwell too much on the 80s.
NAME: Derek Scudder
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
The school may not have produced anyone 'really famous' but in the 1990s there was an interesting coincidence with ex pupils. At the time of Charles and Diana's marital strife Diana's voice coach was an actor called Peter Settelen (younger brother of Max) and Charles's private secretary was Richard Aylard. They are both OEs and were both in my brother's class. One of the big news stories of 20+ years ago with classmates in opposite camps.
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
The school may not have produced anyone 'really famous' but in the 1990s there was an interesting coincidence with ex pupils. At the time of Charles and Diana's marital strife Diana's voice coach was an actor called Peter Settelen (younger brother of Max) and Charles's private secretary was Richard Aylard. They are both OEs and were both in my brother's class. One of the big news stories of 20+ years ago with classmates in opposite camps.
NAME: Nigel Wood .jpg "Nigel Wood")
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 1957-64
Another very distinguished academic who left QE in the early 1960s is the classicist PJ Rhodes, who held a chair at Durham. The article about him in the Department of Classics and Ancient History section of the Durham University website makes humbling reading.
DATE: 16 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 1957-64
Another very distinguished academic who left QE in the early 1960s is the classicist PJ Rhodes, who held a chair at Durham. The article about him in the Department of Classics and Ancient History section of the Durham University website makes humbling reading.
NAME: Mike Cottrell
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
What are the chances of three postings on the same day by pupils from class 1b in 1957 [replies 5, 6 & 7] ? I've got another minor celebrity - Michael Sullivan the old BBC news presenter was at QE and left in the early 1950s. He died in June 2013.
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
What are the chances of three postings on the same day by pupils from class 1b in 1957 [replies 5, 6 & 7] ? I've got another minor celebrity - Michael Sullivan the old BBC news presenter was at QE and left in the early 1950s. He died in June 2013.
NAME: Stephen Giles 
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: inmate 1957-64
I have not had a particularly distinguished career, but... I have held many "chairs" in MFI, John Lewis, Selfridges and not forgetting former Allders of Croydon!!
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: inmate 1957-64
I have not had a particularly distinguished career, but... I have held many "chairs" in MFI, John Lewis, Selfridges and not forgetting former Allders of Croydon!!
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I am glad to see your reply, Andrew [reply ]. This raises 1 of the issues and views regarding acievement. All of what you say I agree with and it saves my entering the points myself. Being famous I understand is not all that it is cracked up to be and many celebs try to limit the intrusions in to privacy of course but not always successfully. There is of course the experiences of Princess Diana but a more recent press example is that of Gwyneth Paltrow, though Chris Martin says he is able to go about unrecognised in most places wearing a hat on his head. Of course on the other hand some dislike not being recognised all the time and the standard cry "Don't you know who I am?" is often very apt. I was amused when the queen went to her own Royal Windsor Horeseshow and was challenged at entry by a security guard for not having an entry pass. I understand some celebrities and sportsmen have had the same problem.
It happens to me all the time, Jas. Can't understand it.
Then & NowDATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I am glad to see your reply, Andrew [reply ]. This raises 1 of the issues and views regarding acievement. All of what you say I agree with and it saves my entering the points myself. Being famous I understand is not all that it is cracked up to be and many celebs try to limit the intrusions in to privacy of course but not always successfully. There is of course the experiences of Princess Diana but a more recent press example is that of Gwyneth Paltrow, though Chris Martin says he is able to go about unrecognised in most places wearing a hat on his head. Of course on the other hand some dislike not being recognised all the time and the standard cry "Don't you know who I am?" is often very apt. I was amused when the queen went to her own Royal Windsor Horeseshow and was challenged at entry by a security guard for not having an entry pass. I understand some celebrities and sportsmen have had the same problem.
It happens to me all the time, Jas. Can't understand it.
NAME: Adam Lines 
Then & Now
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
PJ Rhodes [reply 7] was a prefect when I was going through a particularly contumacious phase at school regarding the acceptance of authority. Having the appearance and manner of a young Mr Bean he was an easy target particularly as he was clearly reluctant or uncertain on how to exercise his new found authority. On one occasion however, when pushed too far, he gave me a C report written in Latin citing "Michael nunc sit" (extracting the Michael) as the offence. Clearly the act of a fledgling Classics Professor.
Then & NowDATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
PJ Rhodes [reply 7] was a prefect when I was going through a particularly contumacious phase at school regarding the acceptance of authority. Having the appearance and manner of a young Mr Bean he was an easy target particularly as he was clearly reluctant or uncertain on how to exercise his new found authority. On one occasion however, when pushed too far, he gave me a C report written in Latin citing "Michael nunc sit" (extracting the Michael) as the offence. Clearly the act of a fledgling Classics Professor.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 22 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Of course, Nick [original message] the school went through some very bad times in the old Tudor building. There were few pupils, teaching was atrocious and the curriculum/activities were very limited. I expect that Grahame Morris (Boris) knew all this. It hasn't really been until the move to the new site off Queens Road and under the headmastership of EHJ that real progress could be made and was made. This of course has to be borne in mind with comparison to schools such as Eton, Marlborough and Winchester, besides other factors in relation to such schools. As EHJ's book on his time as Headmaster also points out this was against much opposition and difficulties such as parents' views and problems with Herts County Council. The school was able gradually to succeed in getting State scholarships and also won the Public Schools Athletics Cup on four occasions. Opinion is divided about TBE's time and being a comprehensive school. Certainly since, achievements have been considerable.
Then & NowDATE: 22 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Of course, Nick [original message] the school went through some very bad times in the old Tudor building. There were few pupils, teaching was atrocious and the curriculum/activities were very limited. I expect that Grahame Morris (Boris) knew all this. It hasn't really been until the move to the new site off Queens Road and under the headmastership of EHJ that real progress could be made and was made. This of course has to be borne in mind with comparison to schools such as Eton, Marlborough and Winchester, besides other factors in relation to such schools. As EHJ's book on his time as Headmaster also points out this was against much opposition and difficulties such as parents' views and problems with Herts County Council. The school was able gradually to succeed in getting State scholarships and also won the Public Schools Athletics Cup on four occasions. Opinion is divided about TBE's time and being a comprehensive school. Certainly since, achievements have been considerable.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 22 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Talk of the great academic Peter J Rhodes, O.E [replies 7 & 11] and his published books is certainly a blast from the past as far as I am concerned. Some of his works are The History of the Peloponesian War and translations of Thucydides. I remember this was one of the subjects for S-Level Ancient History I did. I got a grade 1 Distinction in the paper and I like to boast of this, especially as I have never received a distinction anywhere else. I have not read it since but in the centenary year of remembrance of the First World War I remember his remarking in connection with the young Athenians that as the years had passed they did not know the horrors of war. Thankfully we English all get reminded of them and I see the war memorial opposite my front door. I can also look outside the back door as well as the front and see beautiful Spring flowers of all sorts of colours and varieties and rejoice in them as well as all the many birds.
Then & NowDATE: 22 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Talk of the great academic Peter J Rhodes, O.E [replies 7 & 11] and his published books is certainly a blast from the past as far as I am concerned. Some of his works are The History of the Peloponesian War and translations of Thucydides. I remember this was one of the subjects for S-Level Ancient History I did. I got a grade 1 Distinction in the paper and I like to boast of this, especially as I have never received a distinction anywhere else. I have not read it since but in the centenary year of remembrance of the First World War I remember his remarking in connection with the young Athenians that as the years had passed they did not know the horrors of war. Thankfully we English all get reminded of them and I see the war memorial opposite my front door. I can also look outside the back door as well as the front and see beautiful Spring flowers of all sorts of colours and varieties and rejoice in them as well as all the many birds.
14th REPLY
NAME: Vic Coughtrey
Then & NowDATE: 22 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59
Yes, some bad times, Jas [reply 12] but what of the other times in its 360 years in the Wood Street (Tudor) building? If it did in fact go through good times as well as bad, it would be quite extraordinary if there were no 'distinguished' OEs from the 16th to 19th centuries. Does anyone know of any?
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 25 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In connection with your 14th reply, Vic, were there any good times in the 360 years? Mr Tripp wrote the history of the school prior to EHJ's years. I do not have a copy but when I last went to Barnet Library there was a reference copy there, as there is in the QE school museum. I would like to have my own copy, as indeed 1 of the Elizabethan Headmaster of EHJ, though I was thankful to reading Nigel Wood's copy, which he lent me and which I have now returned. A copy went up for auction at the last 40 club lunch but I did not have enough cash to bid, which I would have done if advance notice was given. I forgot to apply the old scouts motto of being prepared. My father-in-law used also to say you should always carry a couple of £20 notes for emergencies, a piece of advice I have ignored to my immediate detriment.
Then & NowDATE: 25 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In connection with your 14th reply, Vic, were there any good times in the 360 years? Mr Tripp wrote the history of the school prior to EHJ's years. I do not have a copy but when I last went to Barnet Library there was a reference copy there, as there is in the QE school museum. I would like to have my own copy, as indeed 1 of the Elizabethan Headmaster of EHJ, though I was thankful to reading Nigel Wood's copy, which he lent me and which I have now returned. A copy went up for auction at the last 40 club lunch but I did not have enough cash to bid, which I would have done if advance notice was given. I forgot to apply the old scouts motto of being prepared. My father-in-law used also to say you should always carry a couple of £20 notes for emergencies, a piece of advice I have ignored to my immediate detriment.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 28 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Ah yes, Adam [reply 11], I too remember all those A,B,C and D reports. I only got an A report once, which I have commented about elsewhere on the site. I never got a B Report and D reports were given out as I recall to double lines for not completing the original lines dished out. I know I too got lines from a sub-prefect for being cheeky when being asked to proceed promptly to morning assembly. I think a C report was issued then. I used to do all the lines I was given, as not regarding it too much of a bother to scribble them out on the way to school. I am glad I was never a prefect/sub-prefect, having the temptation to penalize others. I probably would'nt have.
Then & NowDATE: 28 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Ah yes, Adam [reply 11], I too remember all those A,B,C and D reports. I only got an A report once, which I have commented about elsewhere on the site. I never got a B Report and D reports were given out as I recall to double lines for not completing the original lines dished out. I know I too got lines from a sub-prefect for being cheeky when being asked to proceed promptly to morning assembly. I think a C report was issued then. I used to do all the lines I was given, as not regarding it too much of a bother to scribble them out on the way to school. I am glad I was never a prefect/sub-prefect, having the temptation to penalize others. I probably would'nt have.
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & Now
DATE: 28 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Peter J Rhodes [replies 7,11,13] was more senior than I but was well-liked, despite being a great swot. He did not appear in school sides as a player but was the 1st XI scorer before the role was taken by Richard Beeny (see 1962 1st XI photo in museum). Perhaps someone has a photo of the 1st XI when Peter was the scorer? He did also take part in Elizabethan Union debates.
Then & NowDATE: 28 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
Peter J Rhodes [replies 7,11,13] was more senior than I but was well-liked, despite being a great swot. He did not appear in school sides as a player but was the 1st XI scorer before the role was taken by Richard Beeny (see 1962 1st XI photo in museum). Perhaps someone has a photo of the 1st XI when Peter was the scorer? He did also take part in Elizabethan Union debates.
NAME: Adam Lines Then & Now
DATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
With a surname such as mine I suffered more than most with the issue of blue paper: "50 lines Lines" tripping off the tongue of Prefects and Subs with consummate ease. One such (Brian Salter) confessed as much when I met him recently at my sister's golden wedding anniversary. I devised a method of repeating the first word of a standard statement (usually something of which Bart Simpson would have approved) fifty times in a column downwards and then the second word etc. but I suspect it saved no time at all. BTW I have decided to change my nationality to Argentinian to obviate the need to go 50 lines down to find my true heritage when posting hereon!
No need to apply for Argentinian citizenship, Adam. The 'country' field on the forms has been redundant for about eight years. My only (barely plausible) excuse for not deleting in all that time it is that getting rid of a field on a form is a time-consuming and tedious business as it disrupts things throughout the whole complex form‑mail set‑up.
Then & NowDATE: 19 April 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
With a surname such as mine I suffered more than most with the issue of blue paper: "50 lines Lines" tripping off the tongue of Prefects and Subs with consummate ease. One such (Brian Salter) confessed as much when I met him recently at my sister's golden wedding anniversary. I devised a method of repeating the first word of a standard statement (usually something of which Bart Simpson would have approved) fifty times in a column downwards and then the second word etc. but I suspect it saved no time at all. BTW I have decided to change my nationality to Argentinian to obviate the need to go 50 lines down to find my true heritage when posting hereon!
No need to apply for Argentinian citizenship, Adam. The 'country' field on the forms has been redundant for about eight years. My only (barely plausible) excuse for not deleting in all that time it is that getting rid of a field on a form is a time-consuming and tedious business as it disrupts things throughout the whole complex form‑mail set‑up.
NAME: Andrew Hersom
DATE: 02 May 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960 - 1968
I don't know how I recall this sort of thing but there used to be pictures of first XI cricket teams from way back on the walls of the first floor corridor, including some with P J Rhodes as scorer [see reply 17]. These may have been removed after my time, of course.
VIC NOTES: They were all still there when I worked at the school in the late '90s, Andrew, together with more recent ones.
DATE: 02 May 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1960 - 1968
I don't know how I recall this sort of thing but there used to be pictures of first XI cricket teams from way back on the walls of the first floor corridor, including some with P J Rhodes as scorer [see reply 17]. These may have been removed after my time, of course.
VIC NOTES: They were all still there when I worked at the school in the late '90s, Andrew, together with more recent ones.
NAME: Stephen Giles
DATE: 08 May 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: inmate 1957-64
Adam now you have mentioned Argentina [reply 18], I can say that is a country well worth visiting - wonderful huge steaks, dulce de leche, wonderful cities and countryside and of course wonderful people (government excepted!!). My wife is Anglo-Argentine and we have been there several times over the past 16 years.
DATE: 08 May 2014
CONNECTION WITH QE: inmate 1957-64
Adam now you have mentioned Argentina [reply 18], I can say that is a country well worth visiting - wonderful huge steaks, dulce de leche, wonderful cities and countryside and of course wonderful people (government excepted!!). My wife is Anglo-Argentine and we have been there several times over the past 16 years.
Back to top
Add reply
All threads
Threads post-2012