21st REPLY

NAME: Nigel Wood  

DATE: 22 January 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64

James, any emotion expressed by me about football [reply 15] would be totally fake. I have ball-game dyslexia. I can't tell one end of a football pitch from another. Please don't be too hard on me. But perhaps I should have made a better show on gardens and gardening. My wife has a great store of horticultural knowledge and wisdom, a tiny amount of which has rubbed off on me. We're keen visitors to 'Yellow Book' (National Garden Scheme) gardens, as well as to the wonderful RHS Rosemoor, the gardens of Forde Abbey and other such showplaces in the South West.

22nd REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 23 January 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

I was interested, Martyn, in your reference to Eric Partridge on slang [reply 16] and the subsequent responses from you, Vic, and from Nigel [17th and 18th replies[. None of Eric's 40 odd works were known to me and I may seek to purchase some on Abe Books, Amazon's second-hand book site, but which one or more is still open to research. Since discovering the site I have purchased quite a lot of second- hand books, much to my wife's alarm occasionally ("What not another book!"). I note from Wikipedia that Eric died in 1979 in Devon and that more recent books on the theme of slang are written by Jonathon Green. Perhaps I might acquire one of his tomes. In the meantime I do have at home The Pocket Dictionary of American Slang compiled by Harold Wentworth and Stuart Berg Flexner and I plan to have a read in there. I hope I don't see too many expressions of the kind disapproved of by Nick and Nigel.

23rd REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 28 January 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

Of course, Nigel, in relation to your reply 21, I am not going to be harsh on you in regard too not commenting on football. There are others who access the site who might appropriately make contributions as also on other themes such as the NT and gardening. You do contribute of course so often and well on many topics as do others but there are some yet to take the plunge of writing something. I have not yet been to RHS Rosemoor nor Forde Abbey gardens but in the light of your remarks hope that we shall do so sometime.

24th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 29 January 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

I doubt Jas [reply 22] will find many expressions of the kind of which supposedly I disapprove in an American dictionary of slang. Quite the reverse. However, as regards my general assertion in reply 20, the latest issue of Country Life has a timely editorial ("Our playful, rich language rules the world") which expresses this far better than I have done: "We mourn each time the 'm' falls off the end of whom and 'will' is used in the place of 'shall'. But only a Canute, or the Acadamie Francaise, would strive to turn back the waves of neologism and poor grammar. It would not work. Besides, a changing language is a vital one". With that in mind, it's interesting how in a few short weeks 'to empty chair/podium' has virtually entered the language, even if spoken in a deliberately emphatic, tongue-in-cheek tone by some commentators. I certainly go out of my way to employ it in conversation.

25th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 30 January 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

Returning briefly to plurals, a contestant on Countdown (29/1) who made a 'risky' declaration of 'medias' was told that, while strictly speaking, 'media' was of course the plural of 'medium', it was increasingly used as a singular noun and so 'medias' was allowable (though "slightly through gritted teeth", as Nick Hewer put it).

26th REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 04 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

I was interested to see in the last Saturday Weekend Guide to TV and Radio that Michael Buerk, the newsreader and host of The Moral Maze, also deplores the sloppy extended use of language. He particularly deplores the indiscriminate use of 'decimate' for a massacre saying that the term means the killing of one tenth, as was done in ancient punishments by conquerors. Quite!

27th REPLY

NAME: Vic Coughtrey   Then & Now

DATE: 04 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59

But very many words in the English language have strayed far their original meanings and Michael Buerk would have some difficulty making himself understood if he tried to revert to the etymologically correct version in every case. You only need to follow the excellent 'Dictionary Corner' feature of the Radio Times to get a hint of the scale of the changes. This week's examples include 'claptrap' (a piece of theatrical business designed to induce a burst of clapping), and 'plausible' (worthy of applause). The development of any language is driven as much by ignorance as by creativity and invention. I admit that I would like to be a reactionary as regards drift of meaning and usage (and Americanisation) but it's a pretty hopeless ambition. Even the very limited ways in which I try to make an effort, such as my insistence on using 'gay' in its pre-1960s sense, cause considerable confusion.

28th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 05 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

May be worth mentioning for anyone who's unaware that Susie Dent's 'Dictionary Corner' feature in the Radio Times [reply 27] is based on her daily 'Origin of Words' feature on Countdown (C4). If you don't want to watch the whole programme, this is usually about 37 minutes in. Ms Dent has also written a number of very interesting and entertaining books about etymology for the Oxford University Press.

I'm afraid I myself numbered among the unaware, Nick, because I'd never seen Countdown and have yet to do so - a confession shocking to one or two of you, I know. I shall endeavour to fill this gaping hole in my viewing.

29th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 09 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

OE Wilfred De'ath [see also 108/54] has had a little pedantic rant in his most recent column in The Oldie. He takes particular exception to 'quite unique' and 'very unique': "At school, I was taught that a thing is either unique or it isn't". (Taught by whom, I wonder; I don't recall that.) While he's at it, De'ath deplores also broadcasters' excessive use of 'incredible' and 'iconic' and nominates as the three most depressing words in the English language, 'bus replacement service'. The OED, incidentally, is less emphatic about 'unique', noting its widespread use in the sense of 'unusual, remarkable' and even giving a sporting example - "He's a very unique player". However, it observes that such submodification is often regarded as incorrect.

30th REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 11 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

You are right of course, Vic, in your reply 27 about how our language has developed over the years and this cannot be halted. There was a similar debate a few days ago on the Today programme with JH and two distinguished guests. One example quoted was the word 'candidate', which in origin is the white-coated one or man clothed in white after the white togas worn by the Romans seeking office. This has been extended to all seeking office. Nevertheless I am still with Michael Buerk in hoping 'decimate' does not take the place of 'annhilate'. As for your point about 'gay' or even 'queer' being appropriated for homosexuals, this has come up before on the site. Maybe we have to be content with 'jovial' and 'peculiar' or similar words to replace 'gay' and 'queer' (per the dictionary = derogative use.)

31st REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 11 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

I am surprised, Vic, that you have managed to avoid Countdown all this time [reply 28, green footnote] unless of course you have so many daytime activities that you avoid Channel 4 altogether. I myself usually escape to other activities when Countdown comes on due to hating altogether the clock count down music. They did get rid of it once but by popular (?) demand it was restored. I do however enjoy 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown, as I enjoy the humour and put up with the ghastly Countdown clock music.

32nd REPLY

NAME: Vic Coughtrey   Then & Now

DATE: 11 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59

Jas [reply 30], I'm not sure there is an exact substitute for the earlier meaning of 'gay'. Its use in the 19th and early 20th centuries created a fairly precise impression. For example, I can think of no really satisfactory alternative adjective to describe what used to be called a 'gay party' or a 'gay wedding'. I would have had no objection to the appropriation of some lesser adjective - one long since diluted to the point of uselessness and in serious need of re-concentration, such as 'nice' - but 'gay' was already a useful (and delightful) little word. By the way, the Welsh word hoyw has inevitably suffered the same fate.

33rd REPLY

NAME: Martyn Day   Then & Now

DATE: 12 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63

I have just written a magazine article about the week of the Coronation, 1st - 5th June 1953. Looking through the newspapers of the time the word 'gay' crops up all over the place as in "London Goes Gay!" and my favourite, "Such a gay parade!". Even the Mars Bar company got into the act with their advertisement in the Daily Express on Monday 1st June.

34th REPLY

NAME: Paul Buckland

DATE: 16 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 1962 - 1969

I have been meaning to reply to this thread since late last year. One of my pet hates is the use of plural verbs with singular subjects: "the government have......" or "the family have been informed" The worst offenders are the newsreaders at the BBC. Although not an English teacher, Sam C0cks would have knocked a mark off any final essay score had any similar mistake occurred in a geography essay. I remember the first homework I ever had from him was to draw a scale plan of our kitchen. I used the word 'fridge' and lost a mark. The correct expression (please use your Sam voice here) is 'refrigerator'. On another occasion he altered a note on the rugby notice board by the junior lavatories from 'under the circumstances' to 'in the circumstances', the reason as he explained being that circum sto means 'I surround' and you cannot use 'under' for things that surround ..... the explanation may have lost something in the 50 or so years since it was given, Nick and other classicists please forgive me!

35th REPLY

NAME: Vic Coughtrey   Then & Now

DATE: 16 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59

I used to be rather keen on writing to newspapers. I remember that one letter was published entirely unedited except that "A large group of youths was standing" and "A number of them was attempting" had inevitably had their verbs 'corrected' to "were" That was decades ago, so like some of the other popular errors mentioned in this thread, it's been going on for a long time with, as you suggest, Paul, little help from the BBC (Radio 3 excepted).

36th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 16 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

On the subject of plurals again, the OED still describes 'news' as a plural noun, while noting (as has surely been the case for as long as I can remember) that it's often treated as singular. By way of illustration, I recently heard an extract from Churchill's broadcast following the fall of France in 1940 which begins, "The news from France is very bad". By contrast, A N Wilson's new biography of Queen Victoria cites her telegram to Gladstone on the death of General Gordon: "These news from Khartoum are frightful ..."

"There is no composition in these news that gives them credit." Who said that? (No googling!)

37th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 19 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

I recall 'fridge' [reply 34] cropping up during an English lesson with Peter Jordan. I think the context may have been proprietary names because he seemed to think it had entered the language as a short form of 'Frigidaire'. Almost to a man (or boy), we drew his attention to 'refrigerator'.

Regarding 'gay' [replies 30 & 33-4], I couldn't help noticing during one of BBC2's current repeats of To the Manor Born (1980) two otherwise unremarkable references to a 'gay divorcee'. There was also mention of a 'merry widow' (another musical allusion) and it struck me that 'merry' conveyed some of the older sense of 'gay', while perhaps suggesting greater ostentation. The Gay Divorcee was, of course, the name of a Cole Porter film starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. It was called Gay Divorce (the original title) in this country, but altered in the US because of concerns that, while a divorcee may perhaps behave gaily, there was nothing gay about divorce per se.

38th REPLY

NAME: James (Jas) Cowen    Then & Now

DATE: 22 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63

Though disliking the countdown clock [reply 31] in the composing of words and the calculation of numbers I do like, as others like, the Susie Dent section 'The origin of Words', repeated , as Nick reminds us [reply 28], in the Radio Times as Dictionary Corner.' I have also enjoyed editions of the TV programme with Paul Martin, I never knew that about Britain. In one edition he talked about the origin of the expression 'to be in the limelight', which as an ex-actor I found interesting. Limelight was a type of lighting used in the past in theatres to light the stage and first used at the Covent Garden Theatre in 1837. It was invented by Goldsworthy Gurney, though a Scottish engineer, Thomas Drummond, sometimes gets the credit, as it is often called Drummond Light. In the same programme I also enjoyed hearing that the patron of The Matthew that sailed for America may have been the source of the name 'America'.

39th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 22 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

I fear I don't recognise the quotation in Vic's footnote to reply 36 ("There is no composition in these news that gives them credit"), but if I had to guess I would say possibly the Duke of Wellington, or, failing him, Dickens, Disraeli or Salisbury, in that order. Or it could even be a younger Winston Churchill: it reminds me a little of when he asked for a pudding to removed from the table because it had no theme. Am I close?

Well, Nick, I'll give you a point for the fact that your descending order of probability matches an increasing remoteness from when the words were first uttered; but I perhaps should have asked "who says?" rather than "who said?", as the same character has been making the complaint since some 200 years before Wellington. Now there are two whopping clues ...

40th REPLY

NAME: Nick Dean   

DATE: 24 February 2015

CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71

... but which play? I can recall news being sought from the Rialto in The Merchant of Venice because I did it for O-level, but I don't think it was that.

That's pretty close, Nick, insofar as it's from Shakespeare and the scene is Venice. In fact it's the Duke of Venice who utters the line in 'Othello' (Act 1, sc. iii). It's a play I've seen many times, in the theatre and on tv, over the decades. I also did it for A-level English (at the age of 42), so I'm fairly familiar with it!

And what's more, my original answer [reply 39] was 66% correct!

A master of spin!