< Thread W15 Thread W16 (125 replies so far) Thread W17 >
Replies 61-80
<< replies 1-20 << replies 21-40 < replies 41-60 replies 81-100 > Replies 101-120 >> Replies 121-125 >>
61st REPLY
NAME: Nigel Wood.jpg "Nigel Wood")
DATE: 24 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
[Re reply 60]. Fascinating. We might gain extra insight by replacing 'you' (because it doesn't inflect) by 'he'/'him'. So we have four possibilities: 'between he and I', 'between him and I', 'between he and me', 'between him and me'. I think we're agreed that what follows 'between' is a single object phrase, governed logically, as it were, by 'between'. If the grammar reflects the logic then we'd have 'between he and I' or 'between him and me'; the other possibilities would be ruled out because he/him and I/me stand symmetrically with respect to 'between'. I'd then wheel in the rule that prepositions never take the nominative to eliminate 'between he and I', leaving just 'between him and me'. But, I hear someone say, grammar, as established by usage, doesn't always follow logic, symmetry and so forth. So it would be perfectly possible, a priori, for 'between' to govern, in the grammatical sense, only the first part of the object phrase, that is 'he'/'him', allowing 'between him and I'. What worries me here is: if 'I'/'me' isn't governed by 'between', what is it governed by, and why should we assume that it defaults to 'I'? Why not 'me', in which case we're back to 'between him and me'. If you've read to the end of this you deserve a reward!
Then & NowDATE: 24 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63
With regard to your question in reply 60, Vic - "What do you think about the reverse of the problem, as in 'I'd rather him than me' or 'It's only me'? Both wrong, surely?" - surely, if people understand what you mean then they're both right. Aren't they? Let us not be bullied by the pedants!
Then & NowDATE: 24 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1954-59
Martyn, my question was a something of a tongue-in-cheek way of expressing something like your sentiment. I mean, who is actually going to say "It's only I"? Certainly, some people still say "You're a better man than I" but 'than me' has become too firmly entrenched for me personally to tell you it's wrong to utter it - it's just part of our harmless hobby to point out that it's technically wrong. I don't think anyone is trying to be a pedant in this thread. It's just that some of us find language facsinating and a discussion among consenting adults as to what is 'right' and 'wrong' in grammar inevitably leads to deeper philosophical thoughts, since the essence of philosophy (or the entirety of it, some would say) is language. I knew a man who, in his 70s, did a PhD on 'may' and 'might' (oh dear, what have I started by mentioning that?). There was nothing of the pedant about him; he just wanted to experience a little excursion into the meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything while there was still time and found that a good starting-point was a contemplation of the subjunctive. He naturally had to establish what was the 'correct' and 'incorrect' usage of 'may ' and 'might' in order to get any further. His other passion was the belief that aliens were responsible for crop circles - but that's quite another story.
Then & NowDATE: 27 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63
Apologies for seeming a little snippy Vic. I'm still recovering from a recent pedantry punch-up over one sentence : "He was hung at Wandsworth Prison on December 22nd 1953." It was the closing line of an article I wrote for a local newsletter about the 'Towpath Murders' that took place in Twickenham in 1953. The murderer, Arthur Whiteway, confessed to the crime and was duly executed. The correspondent sent in a rather pithy letter saying "It's not 'hung' - it's 'hanged'!" The writer supported his argument with quotes from St Marher 1225 (who he?) and Samuel Pepys 1667. He finished his criticism with "'Hanged' is now the specific form of the term, though 'hung' is used by some, esp. in the south of England." I should have left it there but I did reply saying that as I actually live in the south of England I felt quite content to use 'hung' rather than 'hanged'. This clearly was not the right answer. My finicky friend then came back - "'hung' may acceptable as a regional quirk but this does not make it right" ... Which raises that point again. What is 'right'? All this reminds me of a story about a new level crossing that was installed somewhere in Yorkshire. The warning signs said "Do Not Cross While the Lights Are Flashing." Unfortunately there were problems with the new crossing - long queues of standing traffic punctuated by a frenzied kamikaze rush when everyone tried to cross at once. The problem was solved when a local resident explained to the safety inspector that in parts of Yorkshire the word 'while', as in "While the lights are flashing" means 'until', as in "We'll not be home while seven" Q.E.D. Clearly 'while' was 'right' but so clearly wrong!
65th REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean
.JPG "Nick Dean gallery")
DATE: 28 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
I'm among those who enjoy discussions about language, however futile, but I agree with Martyn [reply 62] that one can be too pedantic. "It's [only] me" is the obvious example of something spoken routinely by most people, whereas the technically correct form sounds rather stilted unless used for emphasis or dramatic effect. Knightly examples of the latter are that of Sir Harry Hookway at W13/3 and Sir Humphrey Appleby in Yes Prime Minister, who, after making a lengthy confession to some past misdemeanor that includes reference to "the perpendicular pronoun", summarises his gobbledygook as "It was I". The absurdity of being too pedantic was well illustrated in an episode of Keeping Up Appearances, in which, after Mrs Bucket has told her husband that he should have said, "It's I that gets excited", he responds with, "So what did thou want to talk to I about?"
66th REPLY
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen
.jpg "James Cowen gallery")
Then & NowDATE: 28 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I think that I personally would agree with you, Martyn, that there is a bit too much pedantry about regarding expressions when there is no ambiguity about the meaning expressed. On the other hand I personally do like to see spelling as per the dictionaries, however quaint some of the practices appear to be. Maybe that is a consequence of my winning spelling competitions at primary school so long ago now. I still like the cover of Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge, revised by Janet Whitcut (3rd Edition), which includes "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put."
DATE: 30 May 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
Official instructions for drivers painted on roads and displayed on signs are a source of amusement to my wife and me. We're especially fond of "Use both lanes", as it gives official encouragement to lane-straddling, which I'm fairly prone to anyway. We also rather like "Get in lane", because we feel that the writer really wanted to put "Get in lane, you b*stards!", but was restrained from doing so by some unimaginative bureaucrat.
68th REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 11 June 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Latest baffling word comes courtesy of Julian Brazier, a junior defence minister, assuring the House of Commons that the Government will be "upgunning the role of defence attachés". The presenter on BBC Parliament said she had looked it up and was none the wiser. Nevertheless, good to see that Brazier, who I recall as a rather opinionated light of the Oxford Union over 40 years ago, has his foot firmly on a lower rung of government at an age when party leaders would now be well past their sell-by date.
69th REPLY
NAME: Nigel WoodDATE: 13 June 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
This morning Melvyn Bragg on Radio 4 (very good discussion of Utilitarianism) coined "Skaiboshed". But, disappointingly, he'd merely meant to say "kaiboshed".
Then & NowDATE: 14 June 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1957-64
I suspect Mr Bragg may have intended the neologism or if not it was a Freudian slip. Having tried unsuccessfully to persuade the BBC to continue their patronage of his excellent South Bank Show, Sky TV stepped in and the next series starts on Wednesday. Once again the Beeb have been well and truly Skaiboshed!
DATE: 16 June 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1948-1953
From that Wikipedia which would be the bane of Sam's life:Of course it might be 'kai' when putting the K on the Kaiser.
72nd REPLY
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & NowDATE: 25 June 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I always find it interesting and also a bit strange when there is so much doubt about the origin of words so much in common usage. I must admit when hearing the word kibosh I thought Hebrew / Yiddish, though consulting my wife she thought maybe more likely Indian, as so many words are based on those languages/traditions. I think on examination the Irish source is very possible. We do need to know what Susie Dent of countdown fame or a similar word expert thinks. Maybe someone with time on their hands should write in.
73rd REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 29 July 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Regarding the "in/on" issue at reply 10, I watched the BBC's latest adaptation of Agatha Christie - Partners in Crime, set in 1952 - in the hope of spotting some anachronistic Routemasters. Didn't see any, but I did catch Tommy Beresford (who, incidentally, seems an absolute clot, completely unsuited to his pleasantly curious wife) saying that someone wanted to meet them "on Sidney Street". Most unlikely in 1952, I should have thought, but perhaps he had visited Downton Abbey before the war.
DATE: 03 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 1962 - 1969
Like Nick, I too have been watching Partners in crime and trying desperately to remember what happened last week! It is probably old age but I much prefer the two-hour detective programmes to a series! Once again no Routemasters but, was the expression 'money laundering' in common parlance in 1952? Similarly the GPO, who had a monopoly in the provision of telephones also had a monopoly on the ringing tone (a sort of briiiinnnggg, briiiinnnggg) and the telephone being rung in one of the scenes was most definitely NOT in the Great Britain of the 1950s.
75th REPLY
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & NowDATE: 03 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
I did find the story line on Sunday night's Partners in Crime very strange indeed. I do not watch many crime dramas on TV, especially as so many now go on for two hours rather than the one of old, but I was curious to see how David Walliams and Jessica Raine got on with the roles so different from what they have done elsewhere. I did find it very watchable and stayed to the end of the first episode. I liked the exciting cliff hanger type ending and that reminded me of the old Saturday kids' cinema where the serials always ended with the cliff hanger encouraging all to come again next week. How could they go so easily alone into situations where they might easily be done away with? I hope to continue with it next week and susbsequent weeks if it keeps the suspense up. I do have an added personal interest in regard to Tuppence Beresford, the lady co-star of Partners in Crime, played by Jessica Raine. My brother John owned two sheep dogs/collies, which he acquired during his days working at Woodcock Hill farm near Borehamwood/Elstree. One of the dogs was called Sonnet of Spring and the other, who was one of her daughters, Tuppence. I have fond memories of them rounding up vehicles, working together just like those rounding up sheep on One Man and his Dog (i.e. when sometimes with pairs of dogs working together). Tuppence is not a name I have encountered anywhere else until this Agatha Christie series and I suggest Sonnet of Spring is also an unusual name. In one other current series on TV Flockstars with host Gabby Logan, dogs generally have more familiar names like Gyp and Bess but I note 1 is named Hoggy, as it was born on Hogmanay in Scotland, another unusual name I think.
Then & NowDATE: 04 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Inmate 1956-63
Because the midwife said that when he was born in 1920 he was no bigger than two pennies piled on top of each other, my Uncle George lived with the nickname "Tup" or "Tuppence" until the day he died in 1989.
77th REPLY
NAME: James (Jas) Cowen Then & NowDATE: 11 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: pupil 56-63
In response to your own very quick response, Martyn, in regard to the name or nickname of Tuppence it is interesting that the name is not exclusively taken by ladies but also by gents. In regard to my brother's collie Tuppence I do not believe it has any relation to her size. She certainly grew up bigger than her mother and was almost completely if not completely white as against the usual black and white, like Sonnet was. I thought maybe she acquired her name after the cry in Mary Poppins ("Feed the birds. Tuppence a bag. Tuppence, tuppence, tuppence a bag"). Clearly the heroine in Partners in Crime would not have been named for this reason. In regard to coin related names I remember the surname Halfpenny from a contestant in Strictly Come Dancing. If any have relations called Sonnet or Hoggy please reply and surprise me further.
78th REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 11 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
Having consulted a copy of The Secret Adversary, the original Tommy and Tuppence novel, I can confirm that Agatha Christie herself didn't know the origin of the heroine's nickname, referring on the opening page to "Miss Prudence Crawley, known to her intimate friends for some mysterious reason as Tuppence". Her father was said to be an archdeacon and she apparently worried him (this was 1922) by wearing "extremely short" skirts and smoking. She was then living in a hostel "in what is charitably called Southern Belgravia". Reminds me of when the late Miles Kingston discounted somebody's claim to live in St John's Wood by saying that it wasn't even West Swiss Cottage.
79th REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 14 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
The actress Jill Halfpenny was an early winner of Strictly Come Dancing [see reply 77]. Other fictional characters with monetary names that come to mind include the Rev Timothy Farthing in Dad's Army, Elsie Tanner in Coronation Street, the wonderful Penny (does anyone know if she has a surname?) in The Big Bang Theory and Thomas Crown in the two eponymous films (I preferred that Pierce Brosnan/Rene Russo one). Can't think of any fictional Pounds, but there's a Labour MP (Stephen) and Admiral Dudley Pound was First Sea Lord in the early years of the Second World War. There are no doubt plenty of Shillings, but none come to mind; Bob always reminds me of Blackadder's friend/fiancée whose name was articulated with two syllables and was swept off her feet by Rick Mayall.
80th REPLY
NAME: Nick Dean DATE: 22 August 2015
CONNECTION WITH QE: Pupil 1964-71
I spotted another singular "phenomena" [replies 41 & 42 in the latest episode of "Partners in Crime" [reply 73 et seq]. Needless to say it was the hapless Tommy who uttered it, explaining away his wife's claim that his hive of bees had "left him" on the grounds that this was a problem for beekeepers generally and (in 1952) a "phenomena of the modern world". At least they were travelling at the time in a bus that wasn't a Routemaster and he did point out in an earlier episode that his school was "not posh enough" to do Greek. But, even so, I think his scriptwriter has let him down badly and I doubt you'd catch Tuppence getting her plurals in a twist.